Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

[Legends66NBA7]

"Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history"

Oscar was above average (or indeed outstanding) in nearly every basketball skill. That's what I meant. He was a truly outstanding shooter, he could create his own shot better than anyone in his era, he was an excellent passer, skilled ball handler, exceptional rebounder and arguably the best post-up guard of all-time. His defense was above average but not exceptional.

Okay, I understand.

Maybe a better comparison is Magic Johnson. Let's swap Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Suddenly Oscar wins 4 or 5 championships in Los Angeles while Magic Johnson struggles to win a championship in Cincinatti. Who's career would be better than? No doubt it would be Oscar's. And yet, that doesn't tell us anything about how good the two players were, but it does tell us how good (or bad) their support casts were.

I actually like this comparison a lot, because Magic came out publicly and refused to play for the Chicago Bulls, if they had the #1 pick. He even said he wanted to play for Kareem. That tells me that Magic probably didn't want to be on a bottom level team. While I'm sure he would have had won titles, would have made the playoffs every year and make 9 trips to the Finals ? Probably not.

That's why we need to be more intelligent than to just look at team success. Sure, we need to factor it in, but, when evaluating individual players, looking at team success will only tell you so much.

Yes, individual and team accomplishments both put into context provides us with the most logical answer.

Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal player on both ends of the court but played for some diabolical Magic teams.

Pete Maravich was one of the most talented offensive players in basketball history but how many of his Hawks and Jazz teammates can you name?

George Gervin was one of the finest scorers of all-time but how many of his Spurs teammates are household names?

Well, I can see why all 3 can be overrated, just as much they can be underrated.

T-Mac, while a great peak, also didn't have the best practice habits and was consider a lazy player and a bad attitude earlier on in his career. I actually thought his best defensive days were in Toronto, because I don't think he was ever the same defensive player when he started to be the first option on the Magic.

Maravich, volume scorer and a great passer and your right, I probably can't name many on those Jazz/Hawks teams (I just thought of old Gail Goodrich ). His negatives were that he was considered a poor defender. Charley Rosen might be crazy sometimes with his ramblings, but he has mentioned how Pistol Pete might have been "the worst defender in NBA History".

I agree with Gervin's teams as well. However, he was also criticized off not doing much else besides scoring, and like Maravich, considered a poor defender. Another one Rosen's overrated list.

Off course, these 3 might have benefited from better teammates more earlier on... though I think T-Mac had more than enough help in Houston. He should have stayed in Toronto and I don't just say that because Toronto is my home town team. He and Vince Carter would have benefited playing with each other.

But also, they weren't without their flaws either, but I get what you mean of the overrating of team achievements.

[Kews1]

11. LeBron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Garnett
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

KG>Dirk & Karl Malone

[WillC]

Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.

[pauk]

KG>Dirk & Karl Malone

Why not, its a very close call

[Legends66NBA7]

Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.

Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would be remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.

[Kews1]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

[WillC]

Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.

Exactly.

And that's why we need to keep it in mind that some of the legends of the game were fortuitous to land on such talented teams. And thus we need to evaluate players based on their individual talent - not on their team's collective talent.

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships in any era even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

[fpliii]

Karl Malone is extremely low, under the likes of Rodman? Dirk? Wade?

I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

[pauk]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

That means you have Lebron in top 10? Nice!

[Legends66NBA7]

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships in any era even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

While it's your opinion, why Wilt?

He needed two of the greatest teams of all-time to win titles, who won 68 and 69 games a piece in the regular season.

For the Sixers, Wilt goes 2-17 from the free throw line, in a Finals game no less, and it doesn't matter because the Sixers are blowing out the opposition.

[arifgokcen]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???

[Legends66NBA7]

I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

I think I've come across this before. I've heard this old Russell and Wilt story about the Total Rebound Rate% (at least I believe it's about that one). Upon hearing about the formula, Russell told Wilt about the formula saying how Rodman was a better rebounder and how he would grab more rebounds in their era. Which Wilt responded:

"But I grabed more rebounds than him !"



I got find the link on YouTube again in which Russell tells that story.

[Kews1]

Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???

obviously, lets not kid ourselfs Lebron > Kobe. even if its only by 1 place right now.

[Freedom Kid7]

Erm, damn this is tough.
11. Oscar Robertson (second most impressive statistic man behind Wilt)
12. Jerry West
13. Mr. Moses Malone
14. Julius Erving
15. LelBron
16. KG
17. Isiah Thomas/John Havlichek
18. John Havlichek/Isiah Thomas
19. Dirk
20. Stockton

Damn that was tough

[ralph_i_el]

The consensus Top 10 in ISH in no order is usually:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

So, let us discuss our Top 11-20 lists. Here are some of the criteria we should consider.

-Peak Play
-Longetivity
-Over all Impact (Including making team mates better)
-Dominance (Including NBA Accolades)
-Playoffs Success (Not necessarily a Ring)

Here is my List:

11. Oscar Robertson: Still the only player in history to average a triple-double in a season, he averaged 26.5 PPG, 9.5 APG and 7.5 RPG. He won 1 MVP and was a 12x All-Star.

12. Jerry West: He won 1 Championship but made the NBA Finals ten times. He made 13 All-Stars games and averaged 27 PPG, 6.7 APG.

13. Lebron James: He won 1x NBA Championship, 3x MVP and an 8x All-Star.

14. Moses Malone: In 20 years he won 3 MVPs, 11 All-Stars and a NBA championship. He averaged 20.6 PPG and 12.2 RPG.

15. Bob Cousy: He was a 6x NBA Champion, 13-time All-Star and 1x MVP.

16. John Havlicek: He was a 8x NBA Champion, 13x All-Star and made 26k+ career points.

17. Isiah Thomas: He was a 2x NBA Champion, 12x All-Star and averaged 19.2 PPG and 9.3 assists for his career.

18. Julius Erving: He won 1 NBA Championship, 1 MVP and was an 11x All-Star while averaging 22 PPG during his career.

19. David Robinson: He won 2x NBA Championships, 1xMVP, 10x All-stars and 1x DPOY.

20. Kevin Garnett: 1x NBA Champion, 1x MVP, 14x All-Star, 1x DPOY and he led the NBA in rebounds for 4 seasons. He also made it to 12 All NBA defensive Teams.

Noticeable lack of Chuck. NBA championships are very important to you I think?