Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

[jalbert009]

Let us try to come to some kind of consensus list of 11-20.

For every player voted in 11-15 spots they will be awarded 1.0 points.
For every player voted in 16-20 spots they will be awarded 0.5 points.

These scores are collected from people who made a 11-20 list.

Lists not counted as there is no exact order:
Legends66NBA7
Alan Shore

Player Scores: (Scores below 2 were not listed)

Oscar Robertson = 8.5
Jerry West = 9.5
Lebron James = 8.0
Moses Malone = 10.0
Julius Erving = 8.5
Charles Barkley = 4.0
Kevin Garnett = 4.0
Dirk Nowitzki = 3.5
David Robinson = 3.0
Isiah Thomas = 3.0
John Havlicek = 2.5
Karl Malone = 3.0

Going by these Scores, we could say that from data from ISH members that our top 11-20 players are as follows:

11. Moses Malone
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson / Julius Erving
14. Julius Erving / Oscar Robertson
15. Lebron James
16 & 17. Tie between Charles Barkley & Kevin Garnett
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19 & 20. Tie Between Karl Malone, Isiah Thomas & David Robinson

How do you guys feel about this list?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

[Round Mound]

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Shaquielle Oniel
5-Hakeem Olajuwon
6-Larry Bird
7-Magic Johnson
8-Lebron James (He Will Be Top 5 When He Retires)
9-Oscar Robertson
10-Charles Barkley
11-Tim Duncan
12-Moses Malone
13-Julius Erving
14-Elgin Baylor
15-David Robinson
16-Kobe Bryant
17-Jerry West
18-Karl Malone
19-Kevin Garnett
20-Rick Barry

[kenny817]

Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.

Moron

Will be top10 ALL TIME in scoring before his contract is over

MVP...Finals MVP

Idiot

[DirkNowitzki41]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

[jalbert009]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

I don't want to get into a KG/Dirk debate on this thread. There are already a few existing ones. But Saying KG has no case over Dirk is ridiculous if you as me.

[RIP CITY]

Moron

Will be top10 ALL TIME in scoring before his contract is over

MVP...Finals MVP

Idiot

It's the only thing he's above average at on the basketball court, I should hope he ends his career high on the All-Time list in scoring. Mavs fan.

[StateOfMind12]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

There is a pretty big difference between not seeing the case for something and not agreeing with something.

The only way you can't see the case for why KG is better than Dirk is if scoring is the only thing that matters to you and that's it. KG was better than Dirk at everything else. He had a better peak, more versatile player, better all-around player, etc.

I understand the case for Dirk but I don't agree with it.

[kenny817]

It's the only thing he's above average at on the basketball court, I should hope he ends his career high on the All-Time list in scoring. Mavs fan.

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots

[RIP CITY]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

It's not that difficult, just look at the Mavericks supporting cast every year compared to Minnesota's, then take into account that KG is better at everything on the court besides scoring and still scored 20-24 PPG and there you go. One played for one of the best franchises/Owners/GM's in the League since 2000 and the other played for an inept franchise led by Kevin McHale as GM. Pretty simple actually.

[RIP CITY]

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots

It's absolutely nothing like Peyton Manning, GTFOH. Peyton Manning really has one job, to pass the ball (it's more intricate than that but in the end, that's the job).

Basketball players have to play offense, defense, rebound, pass and all of those things have different levels of how to get the job done.

Offense is post scoring, mid-range and long range, passing, getting to line and shooting FT's, rebounding. Defense is one on one post defense, one on one perimeter defense, rebounding, shot blocking, etc. etc. KG did all of those things better except for mid-range/long range shooting/FT's and still scored 20-24 PPG on top of it. He was just a better overall player.

[raid09]

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots

Did you think about this post at all before you made it? Guessing not...

[Kews1]

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

THe point of the game is to score more points to win yes. But there are a number of factors that contribute to that. Dirk only excels at one, KG excels at pretty much ever aspect of the game.

[StateOfMind12]

THe point of the game is to score more points to win yes. But there are a number of factors that contribute to that. Dirk only excels at one, KG excels at pretty much ever aspect of the game.

+1....not to mention the scoring difference isn't as lopsided as many Dirk supporters are making it out to be. KG averaged 22-24 ppg during his prime with Twolves whereas Dirk averaged 24-26 ppg in his. There is a 2 ppg difference between the two in favor of Dirk which is not that big of a deal.


Some people are also suggesting that scoring was a weakness for him KG. I would like to know whose weaknesses aren't scoring if KG's scoring is supposedly one.

[Legends66NBA7]

I guess you missed Dirk in the Playoffs before 2011.

I didn't.

Infact, going by your own criteria, again:

The ability to maintain or surpass regular season play in the postseason is also a big factor for me. Players crumble in tense situations and aren't as mentally strong as others to handle the pressure of Playoff basketball. Playoff performance is something that should be valued very highly on these lists.

Let's check out Dirk since 2001:

2001
RS: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84 (82 games)
PO: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88 (10 games)

*Dirk's first playoff run wasn't that eventful, but there are some games to talk about. His team faced elimination 5 times. Here was his production in those games:

Game 3 vs Jazz: 33/10/2/1blk on 9-19fg 2-7(3pt) 13-14ft
Game 4 vs Jazz: 33/8/2 on 10-19fg 5-10(3pt) 8-9ft
Game 5 vs Jazz: 18/4/1/1stl on 3-11fg 2-4(3pt) 10-10ft
Game 4 vs Spurs: 30/9/1/1stl on 11-18fg 0-1(3pt) 8-8ft
Game 5 vs Spurs: 42/18/6stl/2ast/1blk on 14-24fg 0-1(3pt) 14-18ft

Now granted, Dirk didn't play well earlier in those series, but in 4 of 5 elimination games he did raise his game in "tense situations". And it was just his first playoff run and for the Dallas Mavericks, who were in their first playoffs since 1990... also won their first playoff series since 1988.

2002
RS: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85 (76 games)
PO: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88 (8 games)

*Dirk's first all-star year and he raises his game in the playoffs. He had a great first round but a much better Kings team beats the Mavs in 5. Dirk also struggles. 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 33/12/3/1/1 on 13-25fg 3-5(3pt) 3-4ft

2003
RS: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88 (80 games)
PO: 25/11/2/1/1 on 48/44/91 (17 games)

*Mavs make it to the WCF for the first time since 1988. Dirk Raises his game in the playoffs. Unfortunately for Dirk, he gets an injury during Game 3 and is unable to play the rest of the series. The big "what if ?" is, what happens if Dirk rides out the rest of that series ? Are the Mavs going to the Finals ? If so, they probably win their first title back in 2003. 2 Elimination games:

Game 7 vs Blazers: 31/11/1/2/3blk on 12-21fg 1-4(3pt) 6-6ft (this after coming of one of his worst games as a pro.)
Game 7 vs Kings: 30/19/2/1/1 in 12-20fg 3-4(3pt) 3-4ft (granted, C-Webb wasn't play after Game 2 of this series, so yes, this series could have also gone both ways.)

2004
RS: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/3blk/1/1 on 45/47/86 (5 games)

*Dirk raises his game in the playoffs. Mavs, however, are eliminated from the first round in the "Dirk era". 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 31/14/4blk/1stl on 11-23fg 2-2(3pt) 7-7ft

2005:
RS: 26/10/3/2blk/1stl on 46/40/87 (78 games)
PO: 24/10/3/2blk 1stl on 40/33/83 (13 games)

*Dirk had a great regular season but didn't increase his play in the playoffs and was inconsistent. His scoring and efficiency is down across the board. Mavs lose to the favourite Suns. Also, didn't play up to par in his past elimination game performances:

Game 7 vs Rockets: 14/14/3blk/2ast/1stl on 5-14fg 0-1(3pt) 4-6ft
Game 6 vs Suns: 28/13/6 on 9-25fg 2-5 (3pt) 8-10ft

2006
RS: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90 (81 games)
PO: 27/11/3/1/1 on 47/34/90 (23 games)

*Mavs as a team overachieved and reach the Finals for the first time in franchise history. However, there are two sides to this season and people remember the Mavs blowing a 2-0 series lead and the series. Dirk, yes choked, on the free throw line, and Game 4 to follow. If he doesn't choke and the Mavs win the title, then it's clearly his best season. 2 elimination games:

Game 7 vs Spurs: 37/15/3/1/1 on 11-20fg 0-1(3pt) 15-16ft
Game 6 vs Heat: 29/15/2/2blk on 10-22fg 1-2(3pt) 8-8ft

2007
RS: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90 (78 games)
PO: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84 (6 games)

*Dirk's MVP RS, but we all know what happens in the playoffs. No excuses here, Dirk was terrible for his standards and the Mavs were upset big time (though looking back, the Warriors matched this Mavs team great). 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Warriors: 30/12/3/1blk on 7-15fg 2-3(3pt) 14-15ft
Game 6 vs Warriors: 8/10/2/1stl on 2-13fg 0-6(3pt) 4-4ft

2008
RS: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/4/1blk on 47/33/81 (5 games)

*Dirk has a rebound year from his playoff production, but his Mavs are beaten by the favourite Hornets. Elimination game:

Game 5 vs Hornets: 22/13/6/2blk on 8-21fg 1-5(3pt) 5-7ft

2009
RS: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89 (81 games)
PO: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93 (10 games)

*Dirk raises his play in the playoffs and the Mavs upset the #2 ranked Spurs, before losing to the more talented and favourite Nuggets in 5. Elimination games:

Game 4 vs Nuggets: 44/13/3/2/1 on 14-25fg 16-17ft
Game 5 vs Nuggets: 32/10/7/1blk on 9-17fg 2-5(3pt) 12-12ft

2010
RS: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92 (81 games)
PO: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95 (5 games)

*Mavs gets upset again by a lower seed, but not because of Dirk's play. Unlike the Warriors series, this isn't Dirk choking. More like a roster of players not synching well enough for a short period of time. 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Spurs: 15/9/2/2/3 on 7-14fg 1-1ft
Game 6 vs Spurs: 33/5/4 on 13-21fg 2-4ft 5-6ft


So, as you can see, Dirk had a lot more moments of overachieving and playing great in most elimination games (tense situations). Yes, there were moments he choked, but I think everyone gets the "choking" label, until they get their first title.

It's amazing how that one run has suddenly turned a player from choker, into this All-Time great Playoff performer.

This quote can be applied to many different players, really.

And why shouldn't Dirk be considered one of the greatest playoff performers ? There are only 3 other players who have career playoff averages of 25+ppg and 10+rpg. He more than has a case.

But he's disappeared in embarrassing fashion.

And like I pointed out, he's also risen to the occasion, more so.