Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

[Legends66NBA7]

But my number 1 criteria is who was the better player period (that includes defense, where Dirk is one of the worst defensive players in the Top 50).

Yeah and I'm sure a guy like Magic and Barkley are still getting ranked higher even though they aren't good/great on defense either. The point should be about impact. Bill Russell doesn't rank lower than Top 10, even though his main criticism is offense.

Your Top 30

I appreciate the thoughtful response. It's your opinion on that list and I'll respect, even though I don't see eye to eye about some of them (it happens).

Dirk is a great scorer but he's a very one dimensional

I disagree here. Dirk has a very polished offensive player to me. He can post up, hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3, etc... He's just more jump shooter oriented, but that doesn't mean he has one dimension. I actually would apply that to Amare.

average rebounder (8.2 Rebs per 36 minutes, less than Amare who gets BLASTED for being a "horrible" rebounder ), a pretty terrible defender for most of his career (just as bad as Amare & Boozer who get BLASTED for being "worst PF defenders").

Yeah, I don't see too much of an argument there... but then again, he steps up in the playoffs with his rebounding to 10+. That's got be respected. Amare's actually goes lower in the playoffs and Boozer ? 10 a game in the RS and 12 a game in the playoffs... Sometimes, popular perception is misleading. I don't think Dirk's been "terrible" for most of his career, but get your point.

Dirk has been fortunate to play for one of the best franchises of his era, that have consistently kept the Mavericks flush with talent and are year in and year out one of the most talented & deepest teams in the NBA.

Yeah, starting 2001. But guess what ? That's when Dirk started to be the franchise guy. The Mavericks missed the playoffs for 10 years in a row. Sure, the Mavs had talent, but nothing mind blowing. They sometimes didn't have the correct talent to win titles. Sometimes it was too much offense and no defense (2002-2004 Mavs). Sure, Cuban put a lot of investment into the Mavs (though, let's not overrate it), but Dirk also showcased he was a legit superstar.

He's had better supporting casts during his career than all but a hand full of the other stars of his era and came up short every single time outside of 2011 (with another excellent, underrated supporting cast).

Which years are you talking about ?

And check the numbers above, most of the time, they were losing to the favourites and Dirk, for the most part, played great in the elimination games. Infact, they've overachieved more.

The Mavs were the most talented team in the NBA a few of those years, especially if you DO believe he is Top 20 ever.

Again, which years ?

And, what about the Top 20 ?

Players that I have in my arbitrary Top 20, include Moses Malone and Julius Erving, who were both on the stacked 83 Sixers (no Dirk team compares to that team)... infact, Erving had many talented rosters, arguably the most talented around he late 70s, early 80s...

Kevin Garnett ? 2008 Celtics and has been on very talented Celtics rosters since that team as well.

Charles Barkley ? 93-95 Suns were also very talented, arguably most talented during that span.

LeBron James ? 2011 team was arguably the most talented, some argue were...

There have been others (yourself as well) who have the likes of Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Havlieck, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, etc... all those guys played with far superior help than Dirk.

But why does Dirk have to be penalized for having talented rosters ? Besides, I don't even know which years are in discussion for him having the most loaded rosters.

The problem I have with Dirk, is that I consider him to be the best role player of All-Time, which is both a great distinction and obviously a knock on him at the same time.

Yeah, I have to strongly disagree about this.

He's a scorer, that's his role, that's what he does best. He doesn't do anything else on the floor at a more than slightly above average rate.

Rebounding in the playoffs ?

He's not a leader (his own Coaches words)

Which coach ?

If it's Nelson or Johnson, I could care less. Neither of them have won rings as coaches to tell me otherwise about leadership.

Now if it's Coach Carlisle ? Well, he also said Dirk is on the level of Larry Bird.

Bottom line, coaches say a lot of things. Really depends how you take those words.

and while he now has this suddenly incredible rep as a Clutch player, he's been decidedly un-clutch for the majority of his career.

It was always there, but the title sealed it.

The numbers back it up for the majority of (you can't be "clutch" or play very well all the time) his games and being "un-clutch" depends also on not just Dirk but the rest of his teammates.

The Mavs have done a great job of putting pieces around him, pieces that cover up his weaknesses.

They didn't do a "great" job in the past the, which is what I mentioned before... they had a sometimes very unbalanced teams before.

There is no coincidence that the Mavs finally got over the top because he was surrounded by defensive players

So were the 2006 Mavs, without the defensive minded center.

particularly a defensive anchor that can cover his ass in the paint, a great pass first point guard, a clutch SG to help him in crunch time,

Chandler was very vital to the team. This year, even though defense was still very good, proved he was more valuable than Brendan Haywood.

Kidd, great pass first point guard, but also inefficient at times on his own offense, unless for 3's.

Are you talking about Jason Terry being the clutch SG ? Because if so, yes he was clutch, but in his past playoff years ?

Like you mentioned in your criteria, you might want check out Terry's flameouts in the playoffs, plus he wasn't a great defensive player of this group.

an extremely deep team

And here's where I feel people overrate that 2011 Mavericks team.

They weren't "extremely" deep:



What screams out "extremely deep" ? Not as an all-around offensive and defensive team.

Infact, I've stated that this team was carried for the most part by Dirk and only a few other players have done with less.

Agree, more or less with coach Carlisle.

A team where he played his role to a T and had his best Playoff run ever by a large margin because he had more freedom than ever to just focus on what he does best and block out the other pressures of being "the man".

He also had a lot of freedom on previous Mavericks teams, just either they weren't good enough to close it out, Dirk got injured, or they underachieved.


Yeah, it's an interesting debate. Honestly don't see Dirk as that fortunate for his career, there are things that people overrate about Dirk but definitely nothing to do with his on-court play.

[Smoke117]

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Shaquielle Oniel
5-Hakeem Olajuwon
6-Larry Bird
7-Magic Johnson
8-Lebron James (He Will Be Top 5 When He Retires)
9-Oscar Robertson
10-Charles Barkley
11-Tim Duncan
12-Moses Malone
13-Julius Erving
14-Elgin Baylor
15-David Robinson
16-Kobe Bryant
17-Jerry West
18-Karl Malone
19-Kevin Garnett
20-Rick Barry

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

[Legends66NBA7]

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

[WillC]

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

Rick Barry in the top 20 is certainly not absurd.

Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (by Wayne Patterson) ranks Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

In SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary issue, Peter Vecsey also ranked Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

Both those publications are about 15 years old and were admittedly a bit too pro-Rick Barry, so he's realistically probably in the 17-25 range now.

Bill Simmons ranks him 26th despite hating Barry's guts. Slam magazine's 'Top 500' ranks Barry 21st.

So top 20 is hardly absurd.

[noosaman]

So you saying Dirk>Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Lebron James? I'd like to see your argument there...



Dirk aint in the top 15-20. Barkley however is debatable.

Dirk is better than those guys except for West.

[Kews1]

Dirk is better than those guys except for West.

you have to be kidding

[noosaman]

you have to be kidding

He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.

[Odinn]

you have to be kidding

And, as for primes and peaks, Jerry West arguably should be ranked as the last of them. Moses, Big O and LeBron had a greater peak than West and Nowitzki.

[Kews1]

He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.

didnt know being unappreciated and genuine increased your all time standing.

[BlueandGold]

Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)

[Round Mound]

I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

Bob Pettit and Rick Barry should be there. I had to choose between both cause Stockton was not more dominant than them.

Isiah Thomas over Barkley?

[WillC]

Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)

I'm not sure we should value the opinion of someone who can't spell Cousy, Havlicek or Nowitzki's names correctly...

[Alan Shore]

5 pages and walt frazier doesn't even break the top 30? that's a glaring omission.

here are the top 9 in no particular order, all of whom i have seen play with the exception of russell and robertson:

jordan
magic
bird
russell
robertson
lebron
duncan
olajuwon
shaq

they made every one around them better, even shaq-- who learned how to pass out of double teams by the time he played for the lakers thanks to pete newell's big man camp. all were positive-sum players with extraordinary BBIQ.

the next 11 are trickier but in no particular order, though i never saw pettitt play.

abdul-jabbar
chamberlain
bob pettitt
havlicek
bryant
barkley
stockton
rick barry
scotty pippen
dirk nowitzki
julius erving

the next 10 players becomes an increasingly-biased free-for-all.

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

[Odinn]

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

[WillC]

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

I think you should stop watching basketball. It's really not working out well for you.

LeBron James and others above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?! Are you kidding me?

Pippen above Erving and Malone?!

Tim Duncan above Wilt Chamberlain?!

What a joke.