Racism - a modern invention.

[lakers_forever]

Honestly I never read antyhing about it. I just read an article in english by a brazilian blogger (english looks good enouth to me - it is also not my first languae) and it mentions some serious historians (search at wiki for them) like Frank Snowden and George Fredrickson.

http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/201...-racist-jokes/

Sample of the text:

[QUOTE]However, according to scholars on the field, racism is a modern invention. The American historian George Fredrickson tells us that the dominant view among experts is that there was not a concept like race among the Greek, Romans and early Christians. Therefore, as written by the historian Frank Snowden, ancient society

[lakers_forever]

About racist jokes. Some brazilian comedian named Danilo gentili (he hosts a famous talk show) has compared a black man with a monkey. And he used the "only a joke" excuse. He even said: "Why can I call a fat guy a whale and can't call a black man a monkey?"

This guy's career has not suffered. Actually he is very popular in Brazil. Show how racist Brazil still is.

What would happen in the US if say Jimmy Fallon said those same things?

[lakers_forever]

very very interesting.

so blacks created racism by resenting the white man for doing what they were allowed to do. fascinating.

Could you elaborate on that?

Blacks did not create racism. Centuries of slavery of blacks in the Americas created that. So, white people "created it.

[lakers_forever]

uhh he makes a good point.

black people and monkeys are the same color.

so black people can refer to white people as albinos but white people cant refer to them as monkeys?

blacks are so ****ing sensitive its almost comical.

But as the article shows, Blacks have been compared with monkeys by racists for a long time to argue that blacks are not really human. Nobody ever called a white man albino to argue he's less than a human being. You gotta look at historical context.

[CavaliersFTW]

"More White Americans believe that Ghosts exist than they do that Racism still exists" - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

If anyone on this planet thinks racial discrimination/prejedice isn't a thing that exists now and has existed since recorded history they live under a ****ing rock and are highly highly uneducated when it comes to world history. I have friends (whom piss me off when they talk about the topic) who have flat out told me they don't ever want to live near or hire/employ people of a different race. They are alive today. Open up a history book to see how perceptions of race have carved out human history.

It's not a modern invention and it still exists.

[lakers_forever]

"More White Americans believe that Ghosts exist than they do that Racism still exists" - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

If anyone on this planet thinks racial discrimination/prejedice isn't a thing that exists now and has existed since recorded history they live under a ****ing rock and are highly highly uneducated when it comes to world history. I have friends (whom piss me off when they talk about the topic) who have flat out told me they don't ever want to live near or hire/employ people of a different race. They are alive today. Open up a history book to see how perceptions of race have carved out human history.

It's not a modern invention and it still exists.

Which books? Do you have any to suggest? I looked it up and those scholars mentioned are very relevant on the field. "The American historian George Fredrickson tells us that the dominant view among experts is that there was not a concept like race among the Greek, Romans and early Christians"

Is it wrong?

Of course racism still exists. Who would say otherwise? Not the article I posted.

[lakers_forever]

Wikpedia of Frank Snowden Jr. Scholar mentioned on the article. Dude was legit (died in 07).

"was an American professor emeritus of classics at Howard University, best known for his study of blacks in classical antiquity."

"Snowden was largely known for his studies of black people in the ancient world. He documented that in ancient Rome and Greece racial prejudice was not an issue. Much of this, according to Snowden, is because most of the blacks they encountered were not slaves. Most slaves in the Roman Empire were white. Most of the blacks they met were warriors, statesmen, and mercenaries. Therefore, blacks were not subjected to the racism of modern civilization. He studied ancient art and literature, and he found evidence that blacks were able to co-exist with the Greeks and Romans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_M._Snowden,_Jr.

[CavaliersFTW]

Which books? Do you have any to suggest? I looked it up and those scholars mentioned are very relevant on the field. "The American historian George Fredrickson tells us that the dominant view among experts is that there was not a concept like race among the Greek, Romans and early Christians"

Is it wrong?

Of course racism still exists. Who would say otherwise? Not the article I posted.

I didn't even read through your opinion on this, my response isn't aimed at you just a response to the topic in general.

People who deny that it exists must live under a rock, as I know plenty of people in my own social circles who feel strongly against other races to the degree that they would act upon it. People who deny that it has existed throughout history I feel are uneducated.

[lakers_forever]

I didn't even read through your opinion on this, my response isn't aimed at you just a response to the topic in general.

People who deny that it exists live under a rock. People who deny that it has existed throughout history are uneducated.

Ok.

Why uneducated if historians seem to agree that it is mainly a modern invention? See previous post on Snowden.

Also read the article. I think you confuse ethnocentrism with racism. That always have existed:

This does not mean that ethnocentrism or religious intolerance (anti-Semitism, for example, was already common in the West) did not exist, but those two social diseases cannot be compared to racism, because, as explained by Fredrickson, a heathen could be converted and an ethnic stranger could be assimilated into the tribe, until a point that their origins cease to matter in a significant way. Racism, the worst of those, creates a bigger barrier, since it establishes a racial hierarchy among men.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wikpedia of Frank Snowden Jr. Scholar mentioned on the article. Dude was legit (died in 07).

"was an American professor emeritus of classics at Howard University, best known for his study of blacks in classical antiquity."

"Snowden was largely known for his studies of black people in the ancient world. He documented that in ancient Rome and Greece racial prejudice was not an issue. Much of this, according to Snowden, is because most of the blacks they encountered were not slaves. Most slaves in the Roman Empire were white. Most of the blacks they met were warriors, statesmen, and mercenaries. Therefore, blacks were not subjected to the racism of modern civilization. He studied ancient art and literature, and he found evidence that blacks were able to co-exist with the Greeks and Romans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_M._Snowden,_Jr.

I don't know the point of you posting that. Do you think perception of "race" boils down to blacks and whites? Do you think examples of blacks co-existing with whites is a body of evidence against racism?

I sure hope not.

[lakers_forever]

I don't know the point of you posting that. Do you think perception of "race" boils down to blacks and whites? Do you think examples of blacks co-existing with whites is a body of evidence against racism?

I sure hope not.

Examples of people not being judged by the color of their skin. That's evidence against racism.

"that in ancient Rome and Greece racial prejudice was not an issue". Not just black/white

[lakers_forever]

Cavaliers, Are you american? If you are can you please reply to this earlier post of mine (I'm curious to know):

"About racist jokes. Some brazilian comedian named Danilo gentili (he hosts a famous talk show) has compared a black man with a monkey. And he used the "only a joke" excuse. He even said: "Why can I call a fat guy a whale and can't call a black man a monkey?"

This guy's career has not suffered. Actually he is very popular in Brazil. Show how racist Brazil still is.

What would happen in the US if say Jimmy Fallon said those same things?"

------------------------------------------

Thanks in advance.

[BigNBAfan]

Wikpedia of Frank Snowden Jr. Scholar mentioned on the article. Dude was legit (died in 07).

"was an American professor emeritus of classics at Howard University, best known for his study of blacks in classical antiquity."

"Snowden was largely known for his studies of black people in the ancient world. He documented that in ancient Rome and Greece racial prejudice was not an issue. Much of this, according to Snowden, is because most of the blacks they encountered were not slaves. Most slaves in the Roman Empire were white. Most of the blacks they met were warriors, statesmen, and mercenaries. Therefore, blacks were not subjected to the racism of modern civilization. He studied ancient art and literature, and he found evidence that blacks were able to co-exist with the Greeks and Romans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_M._Snowden,_Jr.

My friend applied to howard as a white and got accepted, he told me the other students were mouth breathers and my friend was a 3.2 gpa guy so yahh

[CavaliersFTW]

Ok.

Why uneducated if historians seem to agree that it is mainly a modern invention? See previous post on Snowden.

Also read the article. I think you confuse ethnocentrism with racism. That always have existed:

Ethnocentrism and racism overlap to the point that they are cut from the same cloth.

Ask a Nazi party member in the 2nd world war if the Jews were a race.

Then try and tell him "no, they are just an ethnicity".

Race is just a label. Black isn't even a race when looked at genetically. There are something like 189 genetically distinct haplogroups of dark skinned sub-Saharan Africans. Compared with something like 22 European. This doesn't even factor in the different genetic groups of Native Asians, Australians, and Americans.

And there is plenty of historical genetic overlap among all of them - looking back at both history and our genetic blueprints one can conclude that genetically different groups of peoples have become at times isolated, then at other times fought, hated, and loved each other at various times on and off throughout history. Historically when a group people (of any size) want a scapegoat for problems or to create inequality, it's easy to point the finger at a group that is somewhat physically/culturally differently perceived than your own and learn to dislike them or treat them differently. This can be as small as a family feud - two families that hate each other through several generations. Or it can be as big as areas the size of countries of mostly X type of peoples feuding with another country of Y type of people.

I don't believe your statement that historians all agree "racism is a modern invention" is accurate at all. Show me evidence that any historian who says it's a modern invention isn't in the minority among other historians. Sounds like some writer/historian just wanted to be catchy and make this bold statement to sell a book or gain notoriety.

[lakers_forever]

I don't believe your statement that historians all agree "racism is a modern invention" is accurate at all. Show me evidence that any historian who says it's a modern invention isn't in the minority among other historians. Sounds like some writer/historian just wanted to be catchy and make this bold statement.

Not all. Most historians.

I read this article I poste today and google about those informations. There's a historian from Yale named Benjamin Isaacs who argues in his book (link below*) for some sort of proto racism in antiquity. But even him admits (in an essay about his book) that that the most popular view among historian is the one that denies racism and see it as a modern thing. Link to the essay*2 (it has the quoted posted in the article)

[QUOTE]There appears to be a consensus that racism as such originates in modern times. Since
it is thought not to be attested earlier, conventional wisdom usually denies that there
was any race hatred in the ancient world.2
The prejudices that existed, so it is
believed, were ethnic or cultural, not racial. In this paper I shall discuss three topics.
First, I shall argue that prototypes of racism were common in the Graeco-Roman
world. My second point will be to describe the close links between those forms of
prejudice and ancient ideas about slavery. Finally I shall have something to say about
the connection between these concepts and ancient imperialism.
Obviously, in classical antiquity racism did not exist in the modern form of a
biological determinism. Clearly too there was no systematic persecution of any ethnic
group by another. However, I shall argue that it is justified to speak of early forms of
racism, or