Kareem's Peak?

[Poochymama]

Wilt did not "own" Kareem that season, (only a pre-injury Wilt could have made that claim.) He did face him in 10 total H2H's (five in the regular season, and five in the playoffs), and Kareem outscored Wilt, per game, 26 ppg to 22.8 ppg, while Chamberlain outrebounded Kareem, per game, 17.6 to 15.6 rpg, and outshot Kareem, .481 to .454 (including holding Kareem to .438 shooting the five regular season H2H's.)

However, if you factor in BOTH his regular season domination (and keep in mind that Kareem only played 40 mpg that season), as well as his overall post-season play, it was probably his all-around greatest season. Remember, he put up a 27.8 ppg, .486 series on Thurmond; a 25 ppg .489 series on Wilt; and then 27-19 .605 four game series sweep on Unseld. ALL in the HOF.

I agree that Kareem was great that year, and that was probably his best statistical season, but he was no where near the player that he would become later on in the decade.

[jlauber]

I've never really seen footage of Kareem vs Wilt as it has never been of much interest but I know that quote of Wilt saying Kareem was the first player that he ever felt he needed a double to guard, so was he even playing Kareem straight up in these series? Were the Lakers doubling Kareem regularly or was Wilt playing him straight up?

I honestly don't know why Wilt made that claim. He was almost EXCLUSIVELY guarding Kareem one-on-one, (as did Thurmond BTW.) And incredibly, as Wilt became more familiar with Kareem's game, he began to dramatically reduce his effectiveness. In his last season, covering six H2H games, Chamberlain held a 26 year old Kareem to .450 shooting (while shooting .737 himself.) He even outscored Kareem in one game, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

And Chamberlain was the only center in NBA history that could block a skyhook while in the air.

[Owl]

The center position was the NBA's true strength. Players like

McAdoo (who, IMHO, is the 4th greatest scoring center in NBA

history, behind Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq), Lanier, Cowens, Hayes,

Bellamy, Reed, Thurmond, Kareem , and Chamberlain. And the next

tier players, like Walk, Lacey, and Ray, were decent.

Considering there were "only" 17 teams, those guys were being

challenged nearly every night.

Continuing...

But, even with Kareem, the Bucks were only an ordinary 35-30.

As a sidenote, the 48-34 Warriors, with Rick Barry, and rookie

Keith (Jamaal) Wilkes, and a cast of "no names" won the NBA

title. More on that later.

I appreciate that "no names" is in inverted commas, but please, consistency.

Ray is also reffered to as "old" in '77 twice (in seperate posts). He turned 28 in January that year and shot better from the field than he ever would before or after though his rebounding was down. He (statistically at least) peaked earlier in career matching your theories (though people might argue era had something to do with it, honestly I don't really know) but wasn't completely over the hill or anything.

[jlauber]

I agree that Kareem was great that year, and that was probably his best statistical season, but he was no where near the player that he would become later on in the decade.

I have said it before, but in any case, while Kareem's basketball skills improved, his physical skills eroded. Yes, he was still a great athlete, even into the late 70's, but the quickness, and the explosion was noticeably diminishing. Instead of the quick, "catch-and-shoot skyhook", it became a more methodical, sky-hook, and IMHO, it lost some of it's effectiveness.

Once again, too, take a look at his DEFENSIVE IMPACT from '71 thru '74.

In '71 the Bucks were third in ppg, but a first in FG% against, at .424.

In '72 Milwaukee was second in ppg allowed, and again, first in FG% allowed at .420. BTW, the next best team was at .432.

In '73 the Bucks were second in scoring defense (at 99.0 ppg BTW), and were again first, and by a solid margin, in FG% allowed, at .422.

And in '74 they were third in ppg allowed, at 99.0 ppg, and as always, first in FG% allowed, at .425.

[jlauber]

I appreciate that "no names" is in inverted commas, but please, consistency.

Well, that Warrior team clearly over-achieved. They traded HOFer Thurmond for Ray. And gone were players like Cazzie Russell and Clyde Lee. And high-scoring Jeff Mullins was relegated to back of the bench. Virtually no one predicted the season that they would have. And they then swept the 60-22 Bullets in the playoffs.

Having said that, the 75-76 Warriors, with the addition of Gus Johnson, just dominated the NBA, but under-achieved in the post-season, losing a six game series against a 40-42 Suns team.

[dunksby]

I've never really seen footage of Kareem vs Wilt as it has never been of much interest but I know that quote of Wilt saying Kareem was the first player that he ever felt he needed a double to guard, so was he even playing Kareem straight up in these series? Were the Lakers doubling Kareem regularly or was Wilt playing him straight up?

I have read about this a few places but I too wanna know if the Lakers were doubling him or not, I'd say it's probable since Kareem always dropped huge numbers against them and they would have been crazy not to do it.

[Punpun]

Jlauber showcasing he can't into copypasting thing correctly. Do you ever post original content ?

[jlauber]

Ray is also reffered to as "old" in '77 twice (in seperate posts). He turned 28 in January that year and shot better from the field than he ever would before or after though his rebounding was down. He (statistically at least) peaked earlier in career matching your theories (though people might argue era had something to do with it, honestly I don't really know) but wasn't completely over the hill or anything.

You're completely right. Ray was a decent defender, and a tough rebounder, albeit a poor shooter.

And I will give Kareem his due, here, he just torched him in the '77 playoffs.

The reality was, Kareem, at his best, was about as unstoppable as Wilt and Shaq at their peaks.

I just honestly believe that Kareem did not play with the motivation that he should have. IMHO, he could have, and SHOULD have, had an even greater career.

[The Iron Fist]

There are examples both ways. But, the overwhelming evidence suggests that the truly great players were already at an elite level from almost day one in their NBA careers. Many hit statistical peaks very early, and then slowly decline. Injuries, coaching, and the league adapting to them all contribute, but in my research, the best players are generally hitting their statistical peaks early on.

AND, I have long maintained that players do not slowly get better, reach a peak, and then slowly decline. They almost always have peaks and valleys. Kareem is a great example of that. In his first ten seasons, he was absolutely a monster in seasons two and three. He had a slight decline in four and five. And I consider his 6th season as a major drop. In what should have been his peak scoring season, he declined badly, and even his shooting was near a career low.

Some here have claimed that he reached his pinnacle in his 76-77 season. However, they must be basing on it his 11 game playoff series. His numbers during the regular season were nowhere near as dominant as they were in seasons' two and three.

Of course, there are those that do hold a few playoff games as some kind of career indicator, which is folley IMHO. In a short playoff series, there are the same matchups, with the same strategies. And, of course, injuries and even slumps play a major factor in a short series.

That is not to say that Kareem was a "short series" star in his career. He had a TON of great playoff performances. He crushed that '77 Warrior tandem of an old Ray and a rookie Parish in a seven game series. He was on his way to a FMVP in '80 when he sprained his ankle in a heroic game five, and missed the clinching game six. And I was never more proud of Kareem than his '85 Finals. He was written off as washed up after a game one blowout. Then, a re-energized Kareem just took over the rest of that series, and dominated the Celtic front line at perhaps their peak.

But, for all of his post-season brilliance, he was also involved in a his share of "flop jobs", as well. Whether it be in a BIG game, or a series, or even a complete post-season, he had his share of failures.

In the '70 ECF's, he completely outplayed Reed until the clinching game five loss, when Reed whipped him handily and his Knicks annihilated Kareem's Bucks.

In the '71 WCF's, Kareem, by most accounts was outplayed by a Chamberlain in the worst season of Wilt's career. In fact, in their entire 10 game H2H's that season, Wilt held a slight statistical advantage. Even more damning for Kareem, was the fact, that as Chamberlain exited the floor in the last minute of the game five loss to the Bucks, he received a standing ovation...and the game was played in MILWAUKEE.

I have already documented Kareem's post-season play in his 71-72 season. Keep in mind that this was Kareem's greatest statistical season, too. And yet, he was outscored and outshot by Thurmond. And then he was universally acclaimed to have been outplayed by Wilt in the WCF's.

And the very next season, Thurmond again held Kareem to just awful shooting, and the 47-35 Warriors shocked the 60-22 Bucks.

In the 73-74 Finals, Kareem played exceptionally well in the first six games, but the series was still tied, 3-3. The Bucks had homecourt, though, for game seven, and were favored to win it all. However, the 6-9 red-head Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem, and particularly in the 4th quarter, and the Celtics walloped the Bucks on their home floor.

Oscar retired before the start of the 74-75 season, and the Bucks never recovered. Yes, Kareem broke his hand unnecessarily, and missed 17 games, but even with him, they only went 35-30. Clearly, the Dynasty that had been proclaimed after year two never materialized. The Bucks dealt Kareem to the Lakers, and even without him, they duplicated their 38-44 record the very next year.

I have always maintained that Kareem was primed to just obliterate the NBA in the 75-76 season. A six year Kareem, on a team that had gone 30-52 the year before, was an ideal setting to explode. If there was ever a season in which someone could have remotely challenged Wilt's scoring records, it was in '76. Keep in mind, too, that McAdoo had averaged 34.5 ppg in '75 (and would average 31.1 ppg in '76, too.)

Instead, a lethargic Kareem went thru the motions, "only" played 41 mpg, "only" scored 27.7 ppg, and had one of the worst shooting seasons of his career, at .529. Why didn't Kareem just crush the league that season? Once again, McAdoo blew him away in the scoring race, too.

Kareem's 76-77 season was outstanding. He took an average roster, to a league best 53-29 record. Still, his numbers were nowhere near as dominant as a '71 or '72 Kareem. And while he blew away the Warriors in a close even game series, and outplayed Walton in game two of the WCF's, Walton was more clutch in the other games, and the 49-33 Blazers swept Kareem's Lakers.

And I have already documented Kareem's '78 and '79 seasons. Playing with LOADED rosters, and in a weak NBA, his teams were unexplicably early round cannon-fodder.

Of course, that all changed with the arrival of MAGIC, and the rest was history. Kareem was still among the best players in the NBA for most of the decade of the 80's. Hell, a 38-39 year old Kareem just murdered a 22-23 Hakeem in their ten straight H2H's in '85 and '86. 33 ppg on an eye-popping .630 shooting. THREE games of 40+, and a multitude of .700+ shooting performances. He also waxed Ewing in a game in which he outscored him by a 40-9 margin, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.

Still, by the late 70's, it was now MOSES who was the best center in the league. And in their 80's H2H's, and especially in the post-season, Moses just abused Kareem.

So, overall, and IMHO, Kareem's career, as great as it was, I consider it somewhat of a disappointment.

In the finals 10 times winning 6.

Huge fail.

On your part.

[jlauber]

Jlauber showcasing he can't into copypasting thing correctly. Do you ever post original content ?

I challenge YOU to find that exact "copy" anywhere else on the internet. In fact, I typed it into a notepad, because I knew it would take some time. I didn't bother formatting it.

The only "copies" of that post will be MY previous takes, which have been close. Here again, though, that was ALL done off the top of my head.

[Punpun]

Oh please. Your post on the OP and the two following posts are clear as water copypasted.

[jlauber]

In the finals 10 times winning 6.

Huge fail.

On your part.

Your obviously forgetting the REAL reason why Kareem was fortunate enough to win five rings in his last ten seasons. How about MAGIC's IMPACT?

Before Magic...loaded LA rosters that were early round cannon-fodder.

DURING Magic, and with Kareem, FIVE titles and eight Finals in ten seasons.

AFTER Kareem,...the Lakers IMPROVE from a 57-25 team, to a 63-19 team, which was their second best record ever in the Magic-era. And a year later, Magic takes a declining and injured Laker team to the Finals.

AFTER Magic...records of 43-39 and 39-43...or about where he found them.

Kareem was a major factor in '80 and '85. However, Magic was THE reason in '80, as well as '82, '87 and '88. In fact, I have long maintained that the '87 Lakers would have been good enough with Thompson and Green sharing his minutes, to win the title. As for '88...the Lakers won a ring DESPITE Kareem, who was putrid in the post-season, and simply awful in the Finals.

[jlauber]

Oh please. Your post on the OP and the two following posts are clear as water copypasted.

PROVE IT. They must be out there somewhere, right?

[Punpun]

The formatting makes it pretty clear you copypasted that on the ish QR/R.

[jlauber]

The formatting makes it pretty clear you copypasted that on the ish QR/R.

I already explained that.

In any case, please, find me that exact "copy" that must exist out there somewhere, and post it. Once again, you might find MY previous posts that are very similar, but I have done it so often, I can do it in my sleep now.