NBA Finals: 2000-02 Diesel vs 1991-93 MJ

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's hard to measure defense in a consistent way, particularly for different eras. Of course, we all know you are just trying to make Jordan look worse because you want to convince people Kobe is the GOAT because you're infatuated with Kobe and brush your teeth with his pubic hair.

This thread isn't about Kobe. Please try to stay on topic. Are we supposed to completely ignore the defenses both of these legends played? Is there any statistical defensive ranking system in the world that ranked Jordan's competition anywhere near the competition Shaq faced?

[KG215]

As if people aren't taking very obvious swipes at Shaq.

And in most instances it's Kobe stans taking swipes at both. This type of thraed puts the Kobe stans in an odd situation. Some love to try and downplay Shaq to make Kobe look better, and some pine so much for Kobe to be considered as good as Jordan, that they do whatever they can to make Jordan look bad.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know much about that stats, but from what I've heard from people who do is that they can't be compared from season to season.

Then how can we compare offensive stats from season to season.

[Hands of Iron]

And in most instances, it's Kobe stans taking swipes at both. This type of thraed puts the Kobe stans in an odd situation. Some love to try and downplay Shaq to make Kobe look better, and some pine so much for Kobe to be considered as good as Jordan, that they do whatever they can to make Jordan look bad.

Well, I like both honestly, but these remarks about Shaq's opposition is pretty much horseshit at it's finest. Are we really going to act like O'Neal wasn't phenomenal against Olajuwon and Wallace? Neither of those occurred during his peak (1998-2002). Do you honestly think he would've performed worse then he did against them plugging those guys in for 2000 and 2002? I seriously doubt it. His dominance needs to be taken and respected for what it is: Completely and Utterly Thorough. I've asked some very legitimate questions on the previous page.

[KG215]

Well, I like both honestly, but these remarks about Shaq's opposition is pretty much horseshit at it's finest. Are we really going to act like O'Neal wasn't phenomenal against Olajuwon and Wallace? Neither of those occurred during his peak (1998-2002). Do you honestly think he would've performed worse then he did against them plugging those guys in for 2000 and 2002? I seriously doubt it. His dominance needs to be taken and respected for what it is: Completely and Utterly Thorough. I've asked some very legitimate questions on the previous page.

Hey man, I'm on your side. 2000-2002 Shaq probably puts up close to those numbers against any center at any point in NBA history. He was that good and that dominant. I'm just pointing out that the majority of the people bashing Shaq are Kobe stans who try to downplay Shaq any chance they get.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

My vote is for Wilt Chamberneezy, the Big Diesel

Can't go wrong with either of these guys though

[Hands of Iron]

Hey man, I'm on your side. 2000-2002 Shaq probably puts up close to those numbers against any center at any point in NBA history. He was that good and that dominant. I'm just pointing out that the majority of the people bashing Shaq are Kobe stans who try to downplay Shaq any chance they get.

Well, that's honestly a relief.

Would Shaq hang 38/17/3 on 61% against '95 Olajuwon? Probably not. But considering he did 28/13/6 on 60% in 1995, that would put the in between where? Because he is NOT doing worse in 2000. It's extremely suspicious people will gladly post Ewing and Robinson's stats, but with Shaq... Well, that doesnt matter. Its just like yeah, okay. Check out their collective head-to-heads from 1993-95, Shaq's first three seasons. Olajuwons absolute peak. Wow.

[KG215]

Well, that's honestly a relief.

Would Shaq hang 38/17/3 on 61% against '95 Olajuwon? Probably not. But considering he did 28/13/6 on 60% in 1995, that would put the in between where? Because he is NOT doing worse in 2000. It's extremely suspicious people will gladly post Ewing and Robinson's stats, but with Shaq... Well, that doesnt matter. Its just like yeah, okay. Check out their collective head-to-heads from 1993-95, Shaq's first three seasons. Olajuwons absolute peak. Wow.

I've made arguments in other threads that the "Hakeem owned Shaq" myth has grown to out of control proportions. Yes, Hakeem was the best player in that series and his team swept Shaq's, but a still offensively raw Shaq put up very good numbers. Not to mention he was, what, 22 or 23 years old? By 2000 he was just a more complete two way player with a more refined post game.

[Poetry]

But watching this video made me feel sorry for Dikembe Motombo. Shaq was dunking on him like he wasn't there

I remember feeling bad for Mutombo too. It was just impossible to do anything against Shaq when he had position.

[Coffee Black]

Would anyone argue that out of the teams that lost in the finals in those years, the 91 Lakers, 92 Blazers, and 93 Suns were the better of the 6?

[KG215]

Watching game three now and....

In hindsight and even with revisionists history all we tend to remember is that Jordan 3-peated two times, got his six rings and six Finals MVPs, and that's pretty much it but, again...could you imagine if ISH existed in 1991? Bulls lose game one at home and people would start blasting Jordan for not being able to win "the big one" and might start straddling him with the unfair choker label. They bounce back, Jordan plays a damn near perfect game, and blow the Lakers out and win game two.

Cliff Levingston, of all people, gave the Bulls some excellent high energy minutes in the fourth off the bench. Had three buckets (two offensive rebound putbacks), some rebounds, and a couple of blocked shots. Jordan was still struggling to make shots even with about 4:00 to go in the fourth; he was 2/9 from the floor in the second half up until that point. After watching the game, if it wasn't for Cliff Levingston, the Bulls wouldn't have even got game three to OT. They lose in regulation and go down 2-1 in the series. Could you imagine this place if someone like Joel Anthony had come off the bench in the fourth quarter, had a couple of blocks, and three or four buckets in the fourth to turn an 8-point deficit into a 3-point lead? There'd be like 5 threads about how Cliff Levingston was carrying Jordan. Then Vlade comes down and fouls Pippen out and completes a 3-point play to put the Lakers ahead 92-90 with 10 seconds to play.

And Jordan had just a miserable fourth quarter. I mean he couldn't make a shot to save his life. Then what does he do? Takes the inbound pass, dribbles the length of the floor, gets by Byron Scott, stops from about 12 feet out, and hits a jumper over a closing Vlade Divac to tie the game and send it to OT. Having a terrible second half, can't make a shot, on the verge of falling behind 2-1 in his first NBA Finals, and he hits a dagger over a 7-footer to get the game into OT where the Bulls go on to win. But I mean he was this close to being down in the series 2-1 and would've been the scapegoat after a miserable 9/25 shooting performance. (That's what he was in regulation).

Knowing how ISH reacts and jumps all over LeBron and Kobe after a bad game or awful second half of a big playoff or Finals game, it's interesting to imagine the shit-storm it'd become around here if ISH existed in 1991. Even though the Bulls won, there'd still be half a page of threads about Jordan having to be carried by his teammates.

Thing is, despite the bad shooting night, he still finished with a 29-9-9-4-2 line, hit the game tying shot in the end of regulation, hit two crucial buckets (I guess every bucket in OT is crucial) and scored six points, while willing a Pippen-less supporting cast to a game two win on the road in OT.