Can centers be considered clutch

[Hands of Iron]

98-03 Shaq wasn't too bad in elimination games:

38/7/1 58.3% fg
36/14/1 52.2% fg
32/18/4 62.5% fg
18/9/5 55.6% fg
41/17/1 56.0% fg
35/13/2 48.0% fg
31/10/3 61.9% fg

[franchiez]

Not many clutch centers in the league if ANY, at least today.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=millwad]I don't care who he outscored, he had huge choking job from the FT-line in that game. One of the worst choking jobs of all-time.



So what? Wilt still CHOKED big time and just because Baylor was shit in that game doesn't make Wilt's huge meltdown at the FT-line any better or as an excuse. Especially not when choked once again in game 7..

And especially not when Wilt in that game only scored 8 points. He missed more FT's than what he scored points and you try to blame it on someone else..



Irrelevant. And what's your point? Is Wilt's teammates making 39 FT's in a game where Wilt makes 2 out of 17 something that makes Wilt even greater or more clutch?

Chamberlain was getting entire TEAM's in foul trouble. And his TEAMMATES benefitted DRAMTICALLY because of it.

Still irrelevant, it's about being clutch and Wilt CHOKED too many times from the FT-line to be called the most clutch center ever.



It's not a strength when you miss out on a ring due the fact that you can't shoot FT's..

And it's still not about free throw attempts, it's about how many you make and Wilt is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time.

Wilt has no case as the most clutch ever, why do you always have to cherry pick stats just to hype up Wilt. The answer on every question in not Wilt.

Wilt's biggest weakness was a huge weakness and NO strength, and it cost him one ring.

And Hakeem was MUCH WORSE from the field in his THREE Finals. He shot .500, .483 (and was outshot by an unfathomable .595 to .483 margin), and .479. How about Wilt in his SIX Finals? .517 (and he POUNDED Russell in that series by a .517 to .386 margin), .525, .534 (again, holding Russell to a .396 FG%), .560 (and outshooting Thurmond, in Nate's greatest season by a .560 to .343 margin) .600 (and clearly the FMVP), and then a seven game series of .625 (to go along with 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

BTW, in Wilt's SIX Finals, the NBA post-season FG% was .420, .424, .431, .455, .446, and .451. How about Hakeem's post-season NBA in his three Finals? .489 (and Hakeem shot .479 that Finals), .439 (and Hakeem shot .500), and .460 (and Hakeem shot .483.) Wilt was outshooting the post-season league average by margins of .517 to .420, .579 to .424, .534 to .431, .625 to .455, .600 to .446, and .525 to .451.


And how about shooting in game seven of the Finals? In his ONE game seven, Hakeem shot 10-25, or 40%. In Wilt's two game seven's of the Finals, he shot a combined 17-24, or .709. Oh, and in those two games, his starting opposing centers shot a combined 4-12 (.333.)

And I get sick-and-tired of what Wilt's scoring average was in his two title seasons. First of all, in the first two playoff games of his '67 playoff run (the greatest in NBA history BTW), he scored a SIXER playoff high that season of 41 points, and then followed it the very next game with a 37 point performance (on 16-24 shooting.) In the BIGGEST playoff games that season, he was CLEARLY Philly's BEST scorer. In the clinching game five win over the eight-time defending champion Celtics, Greer scored 32 points, but on 12-28 shooting. Wilt scored 29, 22 of which came in tyyhe first half when the game was still close, and on 10-16 shooting. Then, in the clinching game six win over the Warriors in the Finals, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 24-12, while outshooting him, 8-13 to 4-13. How about Greer? 15 points on 5-16 shooting. Overall, Chamberlain averaged 21.7 ppg in the playoffs, to go along with 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting. All while CRUSHING Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. Greer averaged 27 ppg on .429 shooting.

And in the '72 title run, Chamberlain averaged 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and on .600 in the Finals. And in the clinching game five win, all he did was score 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, grab 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW) and block 10 shots (all while playing with a BROKEN wrist, too.)


And how about Hakeem's rebounding and FG%'s in his three Finals? Once again, he shot .479 in '86, which was good enough for FIFTH best in that series (or SIXTH best if you want to count Walton's .621 off the bench...and against Hakeem BTW.) Hell, his TEAMMATE, Rodney McCray shot a team-leading .588.

In the '94 Finals, Hakeem shot a Finals' high .500, which was second behind his TEAMMATE, Otis Thorpe, who shot .529. BTW, Thorpe also LED the Rockets in the entire post-season, at .572.

And how about the '95 Finals? While Hakeem was mis-firing to the tune of .483, Shaq was shooting an incredible .595 against him. Here again, Hakeem was only the FIFTH best shooter in that series. And once again, a TEAMMATE outshot him, and by a considerable margin. Mario Ellie scored 16.3 ppg on, get this... .629 shooting (including .571 from the arc.)

And rebounding? In the '94 Finals, Hakeem was not only badly outrebounded by Knicks center Patrick Ewing, 12.4 to 9.1 rpg, he was only the FOURTH best rebounder in that series, behind TEAMMATE Otis Thorpe, and Knick PF Charles Oakley.

How about the '95 Finals? THIRD best rebounder behind Shaq and Horace Grant. And as for this perception that Hakeem didn't have help in his title runs? How about Ellie's 16.3 ppg on .629 shooting; Horry's 17.8 ppg and 10 rpg; and Drexler's 21.5 ppg and 9.5 rpg?


Now, in Wilt's SIX Finals, he was NEVER outrebounded. Hell, he was seldom outrebounded in single GAMES. Furthermore, find me a Finals in which Wilt had a teammate shoot .588 or that .629 mark. You won't. In fact, I couldn't find a Finals in which any of Wilt's teammates, playing significant minutes, even shot .500. And in those Six Finals series, I could only find one series, his LAST, in which he did not lead both teams in FG%. He shot .525, while Knick Dick Barnett shot .531. In the rest of Wilt's FIVE other Finals, he was MILES ahead of the next best shooter.

[millwad]

And Hakeem was MUCH WORSE from the field in his THREE Finals. He shot .500, .483 (and was outshot by an unfathomable .595 to .483 margin), and .479. How about Wilt in his SIX Finals? .517 (and he POUNDED Russell in that series by a .517 to .386 margin), .525, .534 (again, holding Russell to a .396 FG%), .560 (and outshooting Thurmond, in Nate's greatest season by a .560 to .343 margin) .600 (and clearly the FMVP), and then a seven game series of .625 (to go along with 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

You want to know the difference? Olajuwon was the leading scorer..

Wilt in '67 was the 5th in points scored for his OWN team and in total he scored the 8th most points in that year's finals.

And wow, how great of Wilt to outscore Thurmond and Russell, both were terrible in terms of FG%.

And how about shooting in game seven of the Finals? In his ONE game seven, Hakeem shot 10-25, or 40%. In Wilt's two game seven's of the Finals, he shot a combined 17-24, or .709. Oh, and in those two games, his starting opposing centers shot a combined 4-12 (.333.)

Oh, you forgot to mention that Olajuwon almost had a triple double in that game while facing Patrick Ewing.. :faceplam

And yeah, what about Wilt's FT%...

And I get sick-and-tired of what Wilt's scoring average was in his two title seasons. First of all, in the first two playoff games of his '67 playoff run (the greatest in NBA history BTW), he scored a SIXER playoff high that season of 41 points, and then followed it the very next game with a 37 point performance (on 16-24 shooting.) In the BIGGEST playoff games that season, he was CLEARLY Philly's BEST scorer. In the clinching game five win over the eight-time defending champion Celtics, Greer scored 32 points, but on 12-28 shooting. Wilt scored 29, 22 of which came in tyyhe first half when the game was still close, and on 10-16 shooting. Then, in the clinching game six win over the Warriors in the Finals, Wilt outscored Thurmond, 24-12, while outshooting him, 8-13 to 4-13. How about Greer? 15 points on 5-16 shooting. Overall, Chamberlain averaged 21.7 ppg in the playoffs, to go along with 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting. All while CRUSHING Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond. Greer averaged 27 ppg on .429 shooting.

First of all, the '67 run was no where close to the greatest run ever. They faced a 39 win team in the first round and they even lost a game to them and in the final they lost 2 games against a 44 win team. Sure, they faced Boston in the 2nd round but the '76ers were a more talented team so nothing to brag about.

Oh, so Wilt was able to score on a 39 win team... In the finals he took the backseat for 4 guys and only averaged like 17 points per game.

And again cherry picking games, ha..

And in the '72 title run, Chamberlain averaged 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and on .600 in the Finals. And in the clinching game five win, all he did was score 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, grab 29 rebounds (the ENTIRE Knick team had 39 BTW) and block 10 shots (all while playing with a BROKEN wrist, too.)

While in total he was the fourth option through-out the playoffs.

And how about Hakeem's rebounding and FG%'s in his three Finals? Once again, he shot .479 in '86, which was good enough for FIFTH best in that series (or SIXTH best if you want to count Walton's .621 off the bench...and against Hakeem BTW.) Hell, his TEAMMATE, Rodney McCray shot a team-leading .588.

Again, rebounding is a retarded thing to mention. Wilt played in a league with crazy high pace. Hell, Warriors even missed 91 shots in one of the games in '67, that is more than Hakeem's opponents shot in total field goal attempts per game.

Olajuwon was by far the leading scorer of that Rocket team in '86. And he averaged the 2nd highest FG% for his team and comparing his scoring to Bill Walton who averaged like 20 points less only proves your intelligence.

In the '94 Finals, Hakeem shot a Finals' high .500, which was second behind his TEAMMATE, Otis Thorpe, who shot .529. BTW, Thorpe also LED the Rockets in the entire post-season, at .572.

Again proving that you're a retard, Hakeem was doubled and tripled through out the '94 finals. And how retarded are you really?

Olajuwon averaged 26.9 points in the '94 finals, Otis Thorpe averaged 9.3 points..

When was the last time Olajuwon had the option to be the fifth best scorer for his team and still win in the finals, haha.. Tell me that?

[QUOTE=jlauber]
And how about the '95 Finals? While Hakeem was mis-firing to the tune of .483, Shaq was shooting an incredible .595 against him. Here again, Hakeem was only the FIFTH best shooter in that series. And once again, a TEAMMATE outshot him, and by a considerable margin. Mario Ellie scored 16.3 ppg on, get this... .629 shooting (including .571 from the arc.)
[QUOTE=jlauber]

Haha, it's calling spreading the court and haha, how many points did Mario Elie score that weren't wide open shots? And haha, you're shooting yourself in the foot, you whine constant about how terrible Shaq's teammates were, still his two best scorers, Grant and Penny combined for 39 points on 52% shooting..

And rebounding? In the '94 Finals, Hakeem was not only badly outrebounded by Knicks center Patrick Ewing, 12.4 to 9.1 rpg, he was only the FOURTH best rebounder in that series, behind TEAMMATE Otis Thorpe, and Knick PF Charles Oakley.

What did Otis Thorpe do in that series? He averaged 9 points and Charles Oakley averaged 11 points per game compared to Olajuwon's 26.9 points and don't even get me started about defense. Olajuwon locked down Ewing to a pathetic 36% shooting..

How about the '95 Finals? THIRD best rebounder behind Shaq and Horace Grant. And as for this perception that Hakeem didn't have help in his title runs? How about Ellie's 16.3 ppg on .629 shooting; Horry's 17.8 ppg and 10 rpg; and Drexler's 21.5 ppg and 9.5 rpg?

Wait, Shaq had zero help according to you? So now when it fits you, you mention Horace 13.5 points per game on 53% while also outrebounding Olajuwon. And then you also mention that Penny averaged 25 points on 50% shooting.. Haha!

You can't even spell Elie's name, are you going to say that you actually know anything about him? All his points came after wide open shots..

You bash HOF:ers who Wilt played with while hyping former CBA player Mario Elie..

Now, in Wilt's SIX Finals, he was NEVER outrebounded. Hell, he was seldom outrebounded in single GAMES. Furthermore, find me a Finals in which Wilt had a teammate shoot .588 or that .629 mark. You won't. In fact, I couldn't find a Finals in which any of Wilt's teammates, playing significant minutes, even shot .500. And in those Six Finals series, I could only find one series, his LAST, in which he did not lead both teams in FG%. He shot .525, while Knick Dick Barnett shot .531. In the rest of Wilt's FIVE other Finals, he was MILES ahead of the next best shooter.

Wilt scored the 5th most points in '67 finals and in '72 he was outscored with 23 points per game on worse FG% shooting by Kareem and in total he was the fourth option on offense during that run..

And in the rest of the finals he lost, wow...

[jlauber]

Of course, had Wilt allowed his teammates to take him down in the first round of the playoffs...EIGHT TIMES...how about his SCORING?

BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.) And, as ALWAYS, Wilt outrebounded Bellamy by a 24.2 rpg to 16 rpg margin.

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

.

[Big#50]

Tim Duncan. One of the most clutch players ever.

[jlauber]

BTW, I posted EVERY ONE of Wilt's 35 post-season "must-win" and "series clinching" performances. Please, post ALL of Hakeem's (and not some cherry picked games over the course of TEN games.) Oh, and post his opposing center's numbers in them, as well. I want ALL of them.

[millwad]

BTW, I posted EVERY ONE of Wilt's 35 post-season "must-win" and "series clinching" performances. Please, post ALL of Hakeem's (and not some cherry picked games over the course of TEN games.) Oh, and post his opposing center's numbers in them, as well. I want ALL of them.

How many of those games did he won? That's the real question.

And cherry picked? I posted all his must win's in his prime and he won 9 out of 10 of those games.

Wilt really nothing to do in this thread, greatest choking performance from the FT-line in one series doesn't give him the right to be mentioned in this thread.

And please post all of his FT% in those games..

[Hands of Iron]

BTW, I posted EVERY ONE of Wilt's 35 post-season "must-win" and "series clinching" performances. Please, post ALL of Hakeem's (and not some cherry picked games over the course of TEN games.) Oh, and post his opposing center's numbers in them, as well. I want ALL of them.

You guys are entertaining as hell.

[millwad]

You guys are entertaining as hell.

He's just mad because Connie Dierking had his best series ever against Wilt Chamberlain, can you imagine that the guy in the picture below averaged;

17.5 points, 13 rebounds and 3.5 asisists on Wilt Chamberlain?

[jlauber]

How many of those games did he won? That's the real question.

And cherry picked? I posted all his must win's in his prime and he won 9 out of 10 of those games.

Wilt really nothing to do in this thread, greatest choking performance from the FT-line in one series doesn't give him the right to be mentioned in this thread.

And please post all of his FT% in those games..

Onced again, I can "cherry pick' Wilt's PRIME big games too.

Games of 56-35, 53-22, 50-35, 50-17, 46-34, 46-32, 46-23, 45-27, 42-37, 42-29, 41-34, 40-25, 39-30, 38-26 etc.

But, instead I gave you EVERY ONE of his BIG GAMES. All you can give me is Hakeem's playoff runs from '93 thru '95...in FIFTEEN post-seasons? I want ALL of his "must win" and "series clinching performances", AND his OPPOSING center's play in them, as well.

And once again, had Wilt allowed his teammates to blow EIGHT FIRST ROUND series, and here were Wilt's numbers...

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.) And, as ALWAYS, Wilt outrebounded Bellamy by a 24.2 rpg to 16 rpg margin.

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455.) Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11

Not only that but how about these numbers in his CAREER ABSOLUTE ELIMINATION GAMES...

The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while outshooting him by a .545 to that .383 margin (18-33 to 23-60.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[millwad]

Bla bla bla..

Post his FT% and also explain how you feel about the fact that the guy in the pic below had his best series in his career against prime Wilt Chamberlain?



What was the reason behind him having the series of his life against Wilt Chamberlain?

[jlauber]

Post his FT% and also explain how you feel about the fact that the guy in the pic below had his best series in his career against prime Wilt Chamberlain?



What was the reason behind him having the series of his life against Wilt Chamberlain?

Nope. YOU post ALL of Hakeem's MUST WIN and SERIES CLINCHING GAMES, as well in which ROUND it occurred, AND his OPPOSING centers numbers in those games.

ALL of them...even a 36 year old Hakeem (and I DID post a 36 year old Wilt's BTW.)

[HardwoodLegend]

How many of jlauber's 10,949 posts are about Wilt? Jesus.

He's quite knowledgable though. World's foremost Wilt scholar?

[millwad]

Nope. YOU post ALL of Hakeem's MUST WIN and SERIES CLINCHING GAMES, as well in which ROUND it occurred, AND his OPPOSING centers numbers in those games.

ALL of them...even a 36 year old Hakeem (and I DID post a 36 year old Wilt's BTW.)

I don't have that amount of time to waste on a basketball player.

But damn, if Connie Dierking could average 17.5 points, 13 rebounds and 3.5 assists against Chamberlain I'm sure that Ryan Hollins who without no doubt is a more skilled player could destroy Chamberlain as well.

I'm very shocked over the fact that Dierking could put up numbers even close to that against a prime Chamberlain. Imagine a prime Shaq on Chamberlain instead of Connie Dierking, pure slaughter..