Kareem before Magic.

[Pointguard]

1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

He never lacked in accolades or showing he was the best individual player. Franchise implies you have a dynastic vision with a player. Lebron could have consistently taken an otherwise bad team - one of the league's worse, to the ECF's or even beyond. That's a great cornerstone for a franchise. Thus, a franchise player.

[ThunderStruk022]

Yo, you came off earlier like you were a man or of some age. Some questions were put to you and now you are trying to go off on some tangent with a different poster on a different topic (we have to help the moderators here). Why don't you deal the hand you were dealt?

Not real suer what yo mean by coming off like a man or of some age? That's confusing.

Anyway. I don't have a problem with Wilt. He was a phenomenal player, obviously, and if you want to make a case for him as the GOAT, I can live with it. Heck, gun to my head, I don't know if there's any other center I'd pick to build a team around.

I just get a kick out of jlauber's constant defending of Wilt, even when it's unwarranted, and acting like he never messed up and was never at fault for losing a playoff game or series. He constantly criticizes Wilt's teammates and coaches for not doing enough to win a game or series and never places even the smallest amount of blame on Wilt. It's like, in his mind, Wilt walked on water and healed the sick in basketball terms. And, because of that, it's damn near impossible to take him seriously because he's not the least bit objective in his posts and is the very definition of a "stan", "fanboy", or whatever other terms apply to maniacal overzealous fans.

I mean if the guy can't even at least admit that there is some blame to be placed on Wilt for not beating Russell and winning more championships, despite apparently being a far superior player, then I can't take him seriously as a poster.

[Pointguard]

Not real suer what yo mean by coming off like a man or of some age? That's confusing.

Anyway. I don't have a problem with Wilt. He was a phenomenal player, obviously, and if you want to make a case for him as the GOAT, I can live with it. Heck, gun to my head, I don't know if there's any other center I'd pick to build a team around.

I just get a kick out of jlauber's constant defending of Wilt, even when it's unwarranted, and acting like he never messed up and was never at fault for losing a playoff game or series. He constantly criticizes Wilt's teammates and coaches for not doing enough to win a game or series and never places even the smallest amount of blame on Wilt. It's like, in his mind, Wilt waked on water and healed the sick in basketball terms. And, because of that, it's damn near impossible to take him seriously because he's not the least bit objective in his posts and is the very definition of a "stan", "fanboy", or whatever other terms apply to maniacal overzealous fans.

I mean if the guy can't even at least admit that there is some blame to be placed on Wilt for not beating Russell and winning more championships, despite apparently being a far superior player, then I can't take him seriously as a poster.

Don't worry about it. We all good.

[Ne 1]

He was a franchise player, he just couldn't win with exception to that 1971 season.

For me, that's the reason why I don't put him over Jordan. 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP during an era where he won 5 MVPs.

That's because Kareem played with absolute trash in the mid 70's which wasted a lot of his prime. I saw some footage from some playoff series vs Golden State and Portland and nobody on the Lakers could do anything except for Kareem. A lot of his teammates looked like they belonged in the CBA. (The D-League of that time)

Jordan had better casts around him during his prime years than Kareem did. Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People (Jordan stans in particular) can keep getting at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just f*cking sucks and you can't win even if you play like a God, like Kareem did (Jordan in the 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even your boy Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too).

[Coffee Black]

The Bucks with Kareem were great, albeit not the best. They had a record setting team, good records, and good showings the playoffs.

The Kareem Lakers before 1980 were just not well constructed teams. Kareem was still great, but maybe not as great as when he was Buck. The gaurds in those Lakers teams played statue like defense, not too mention the self destructive 1978 team, and players like Kermit Washington and Adrian Dantley, whom were the best for building championship teams.

[DMAVS41]

Kareem was definitely a franchise player and the best player of the 70's...

I rank Magic higher on my all time list though. Just thought Magic was a better player quite honestly.

[Pointguard]

The Bucks with Kareem were great, albeit not the best. They had a record setting team, good records, and good showings the playoffs.

The Kareem Lakers before 1980 were just not well constructed teams. Kareem was still great, but maybe not as great as when he was Buck. The gaurds in those Lakers teams played statue like defense, not too mention the self destructive 1978 team, and players like Kermit Washington and Adrian Dantley, whom were the best for building championship teams.

Those are weird times - the late 70's. And teams were good for two years and then disappeared. In the 80's there were five or six franchises/dynasties.

Kareem was definitely a franchise player and the best player of the 70's...

I rank Magic higher on my all time list though. Just thought Magic was a better player quite honestly.

On my team (not the case with yours), I don't consider Mello or Amare franchise players because we aren't and weren't, really contenders. And, I, perhaps have projected that onto my outlook a bit too hard? But I do notice that most of the posters here rarely use the term primarily because few players really deserve the title. I reserved the title for guys that I would feel good that my team is in contention for a title, particularly when the whole league sucks.

Other words, I feel a franchise player is the player that if you traded, you really feel that you have given up your hopes of contending.

[DKLaker]

So when in his prime he was the man you could turn to get you at least into the conference finals. Yes or no, question?

Has the meaning of franchise player changed? You got a meaning because what Rick Barry did in that time period was much more impressive than what Kareem did. Barry could win with a rookie Jamal Wilkes as his second best player and Kareem couldn't do it with Jamal Wilkes four years later with Norm Nixon and Adrian Dantley.

What is your counter argument? Were the Lakers a contender that whole time? Did I miss something? Somebody like Lebron is a franchise because he can have you contending every year. Conference finals back then was win games in the playoffs. Not a whole lot.

IGOTGAME and ThunderStruk do you have an argument. Do you think Kareem got a franchise contract from the Laker organization or did I miss that too? Speak up.

NBA had incredibly stacked teams.....like it is starting to be now, that changes everything. KAJ was a horrible teammate and the Lakers needed a glue guy leader like Magic, a guy who could lead but still cater to KAJ......something Kobe should've done with Shaq.

This is easy stuff....Michael Jordan would've never won a ring if the Lakers, Pistons, Celtics teams didn't get old......had he come in with Magic and Bird he'd just be another Dominique.

[Pointguard]

NBA had incredibly stacked teams.....like it is starting to be now, that changes everything. KAJ was a horrible teammate and the Lakers needed a glue guy leader like Magic, a guy who could lead but still cater to KAJ......something Kobe should've done with Shaq.

This is easy stuff....Michael Jordan would've never won a ring if the Lakers, Pistons, Celtics teams didn't get old......had he come in with Magic and Bird he'd just be another Dominique.

Back then, if you won six playoff games you are in the conference finals. And that time period had no dynasties or really good teams for more than two years. If Jordan was around ten years earlier he has no franchise team to worry about. It was a great opportunity time for people to get rings - Gus Williams was close to winning two rings as the man and most folks here don't know who he is. The 80's had more dynastic franchises than any other time in the sport. The 70's the least. No way Magic, Jordan, Bird come out of the late 70's without three rings. Heck Barry had one with no help.

[Niquesports]

Back then, if you won six playoff games you are in the conference finals. And that time period had no dynasties or really good teams for more than two years. If Jordan was around ten years earlier he has no franchise team to worry about. It was a great opportunity time for people to get rings - Gus Williams was close to winning two rings as the man and most folks here don't know who he is. The 80's had more dynastic franchises than any other time in the sport. The 70's the least. No way Magic, Jordan, Bird come out of the late 70's without three rings. Heck Barry had one with no help.

Can anyone name the team that went to the most finals in the 70's ? My Bullets

[INDI]

Oh so now a destitute business major is going to tell me that when an industry fails and falls on your clock, go to your past successes and that's good enough. Would you invest in a failing project? Was he good enough to get a franchise contract from the Lakers like the one given on his clock. Was he winning and holding down what was set up for him? From '75 to '79 things were going down south and nobody was consistently handling their business... in the league. Franchise is about a safe projection of future success. Where was the success at?

Its truly disrespectful for you to come at me with threats like you on some quality control??? Are you even reading these boards? You're a monitor and step up on me when I wonder where you are, 80% the time. I know in the past our debates have left you foul, but comon man. Ohh and thanks for leaving out the next line where I describe Franchise above which might have helped you understand what other poster have contributed. Am I asking too much from you??? Keep reading the thread before you reply.

Your thread is misleading. You ask is he a franchise player, the thread says before magic but your limiting it to 75-79. That is not before magic, before magic means ALL of the years before magic which he was a champion and MVP

[Pointguard]

Can anyone name the team that went to the most finals in the 70's ? My Bullets

Earl Monroe, Gus Johnson, Gene Shue, Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes you had good reason to be proud and entertained.

I saw on Reel to Reel when Phil Chenier punched Walt Frazier in the face and Walt didn't hit him back, but went totally ballistic on him. Frazier mopped the floor with him after that. The impact was such that Walt had knocked him out.

[ILLsmak]

links to the "DON'T MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF YOUNG MAN YOU NEVER SAW HIM PLAY" thread.

-Smak

[crisoner]

There are threads on this board like this...then we wonder why in the NBA All Time list LeBron is at 11 etc.

Not surprised at all.

[Pointguard]

Your thread is misleading. You ask is he a franchise player, the thread says before magic but your limiting it to 75-79. That is not before magic, before magic means ALL of the years before magic which he was a champion and MVP

True, I should have said between the great PG's.