The MYTH that Dirk had no help throughout his career

[IllegalD]

Quality players Dirk has played with throughout his career:

Future Hall of Famers:

Steve Nash
Jason Kidd

All-Star/ All-Star Level Players:

Steve Nash
Michael Finley
Antawn Jamison
Josh Howard
Tyson Chandler
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion
Jason Terry
Jason Kidd
Devin Harris
Antoine Walker
Lamar Odom
Jerry Stackhouse
Nick Van Exel
Juwan Howard

Seasons Dirk/Mavs could've won Championships but didn't:

These seasons Dirk and the Mavericks had legitimate chances to win it all but didn't for various reasons (bad luck, injuries, unlucky matchups, etc.)

2002-2003 Season: My favorite version of the Dirk-era Mavs. The "original" Big 3 for a generation of fans at their peak. Nash, Finley, Dirk. Nick Van Exel clutch off the bench. Rounded out with a solid bench of gritty and veteran players like Adrian Griffin, Walt "The Wizard" Williams, Najera, Raef LaFrentz. The team's chances fell apart when Dirk got injured in the playoffs.

2005-2006 Season: The season it all seemed to finally click for Dirk as far as him learning how to be "the man" and taking over in crunch-time. Mavs up 13, 6 minutes away from going up 3-0 in the NBA Finals against the Heat. An aggressive Wade, some generous whistles, and Dirk going back to settling for jumpers instead of taking hard to the rim like he had been, Mavs collapse, loose the series.

2006-2007 Season: Dirk's MVP Season. 67-Win Mavs. They draw the worst possible matchup they could've drawn in the first round. They're kryptonite, the Golden State Warriors. 8th seeded Warriors beat the 1st seeded Mavs in arguably the biggest upset in NBA playoffs history.

A lucky bounce here, a different playoff matchup there, and Dirk could potentially have up to 4 rings, and his legacy would be much different.

[wally_world]

Misleading title, i thought you were gonna bash on Dirk for not winning more titles.

The early 00s Mavs were a really talented and fun bunch to watch, but pure run and gun offense doesnt win championships. That team literally played no defense. It is easily one of my fav teams to watch tho.

The Finals vs the Heat was b/s, too many bad calls. They should've had a great shot to win if not for the refs.

The series against the Warriors is interesting. Granted GSW was their kryptonite, and they are a really talented team for an 8th seed, it was no excuse to lose. I expected it to be a tough 7 game series but Mavs wound up losing 4-2 with some blowouts. This hurts Dirk's legacy quite a bit.

The only team Dirk had that was STACKED was the early 00s with Nash/Finley/NVE etc IMO. Josh Howard was their 2nd best player in the finals vs the Heat, and he won the chip with a very mediocre bunch 2 seasons ago.

[IllegalD]

Misleading title, i thought you were gonna bash on Dirk for not winning more titles.

How is the title misleading? The title states that its a myth that Dirk has had little-to-no help throughout his career and in it I list quality players that Dirk has played with throughout his career, and seasons where he had good enough casts/chances to win it all. That you expected me to bash Dirk in the thread has little to do with my thread title and more to do with your own assumptions.

The early 00s Mavs were a really talented and fun bunch to watch, but pure run and gun offense doesnt win championships. That team literally played no defense. It is easily one of my fav teams to watch tho.

Pure Run-&-Gun offense doesn't generally win NBA championships, but that doesn't mean it can't. Just because something isn't the "norm" doesn't mean it can't happen. The 2004 Pistons and the 2011 Mavs aren't the "norm" for teams that win championships, but they won. The 2003 Mavs had a legit shot at winning it all 'cause they were, as you said, stacked, until their best player (Dirk) got injured. Steve Nash's Suns, who were even more pure Run-&-Gun than his Mavs teams had legit shots to win it be it not for similar runs of "bad luck" (injuries to Joe Johnson, Amare. Robert Horry hip-checking Nash into the scorer's table, causing suspensions to Amare, etc.)

The Finals vs the Heat was b/s, too many bad calls. They should've had a great shot to win if not for the refs.

The refs gave the Heat/Wade many favorable calls, but Dirk's play dropped considerably in the Finals compared to how he had been playing leading up to them. He stopped doing what got him there, attacking the rim, and started settling for jumpers again.

The only team Dirk had that was STACKED was the early 00s with Nash/Finley/NVE etc IMO. Josh Howard was their 2nd best player in the finals vs the Heat, and he won the chip with a very mediocre bunch 2 seasons ago.

Josh Howard was an all-star the season after, and was a 17 and 7 player with good defense. That is comparable to what other good second bananas have given their championship teams. The 2011 Mavs were not a "mediocre bunch": Jason Kidd (future HOF, one year removed from being an All-star, still averaging 8 assists per game), Shawn Marion (multiple all-star, elite rebounder, defender), Jason Terry (all-star level, 18 PPG scorer, one of the best 6th men in the game), Tyson Chandler (DPOY winner, 2nd best defensive anchor in the league). One of the best passing teams of the last decade (up there with the 2002 Kings and the 2012 Spurs)

[Kblaze8855]

There are like 40 people on earth who ever said Dirk has had no help and all of them are from Texas or Germany.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Oh look another bashing Dirk thread, how original.

[IllegalD]

Oh look another bashing Dirk thread, how original.

Where do I bash Dirk?

[DMAVS41]

There are like 40 people on earth who ever said Dirk has had no help and all of them are from Texas or Germany.

There is a huge difference between saying..."no help"...and not championship caliber help that many of the all time greats had.

Dirk played on at most 4 teams capable of winning a title. He won one. Made the finals another time. Got hurt in the WCF another. And he and his team choked / played horrible / played a nightmare matchup in the other.

And with all of that. Not once did Dirk have the best team in the league around him or another truly elite 2nd guy or coach.

People make the "help" comments when we have to hear about Dirk only having 1 ring. When really only maybe a handful of players in the history of the game could have won a title...or more than 1. How many does Duncan win? Maybe 2 or 3. Same with Shaq....at most. It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count.

[noosaman]

If Dirk has had a lot of help then every great player to win a title played on an incredibly stacked team.

JJ freaking Barea was his 2nd/3rd option in several games, for crying out loud.

[Kblaze8855]

It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count.

So...Larry Bird? who else could you possibly mean? I dont assume you mean shaq...nobody talks about Shaq vs dirk. Duncan has not had even one team that just...should have won off sheer talent. Cant be KG. Often compared to dirk...you wouldnt say hes had 10 teams that should have won.

Magic? who compares Magic to Dirk? Im guessing not him....

so...Bird vs dirk? That what youre getting at?

[Jacks3]

If his help was so great than why have they collapsed whenever hes on the bench for the last 12 seasons? Every single year. They're in the negative.

[DMAVS41]

So...Larry Bird? who else could you possibly mean? I dont assume you mean shaq...nobody talks about Shaq vs dirk. Duncan has not had even one team that just...should have won off sheer talent. Cant be KG. Often compared to dirk...you wouldnt say hes had 10 teams that should have won.

Magic? who compares Magic to Dirk? Im guessing not him....

so...Bird vs dirk? That what youre getting at?

Every single other player that people rank over Dirk. The knock on him was that he couldn't win with these so called "great teams"...and it's of course a notion we've blown out of the water time and time again.

My point is that rarely...if ever do teams win with what Dirk has had throughout his career. Yes, Duncan did in some regards. But even then Duncan definitely had more help and far better coaching. No other player that I can really think of was rattling off titles with similar help to what Dirk had. That is the point.

So in a thread like this. Yes, it is a myth that dirk had "NO" help. He obviously had very good teams as his teams won over 50 11 straight years (been done 3 or 4 times in the history of the NBA), made the finals twice, the wcf 3 times, won a title, and won 67 games one year. You don't get those results by not having quality help.

But if the jump is from quality help to championship help....well then that is just wrong and the history of the league proves that quite clearly.

[Kblaze8855]

Well when you say:

"It's not like he had 10 plus championship teams the way a lot of other great players did that people often compare him to in ring count."

I assumed you meant someone who had...10 plus championship level teams who gets compared to Dirk. Not...everyone ranked over Dirk. There might be like....5 people ever....to have teams on the level you seem to mean and have them for that long. I assumed you meant one of them.

[Mr Know It All]

I posted this in another thread, so allow me to post it again. Dirk had quality teammates through many of his years, but he never had the help that other greats did during his era. That is, he never had another All-NBA teammate and very few All-star teammates after Nash left (and even Nash was not near the player in Dallas he became in Phoenix.

Let's see the past champions and finalists and see how All-NBAers correlate to success:

2012 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Thunder: 2 All-NBAers (Durant, Westbrook), 2 All-Stars (Durant, Westbrook)

2011 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-star (Dirk)

2010 Finals:

Celtics: 0 All-NBAers, 3 All-Stars (Rondo, Pierce, Garnett)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-Stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2009 Finals:

Magic: 1 All-NBAers (Dwight), 1 All-star (Dwight)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2008 Finals:

Celtics: 2 All-NBAers (Garnett, Pierce), 3 All-Stars (Garnett, Pierce, Allen)

Lakers: 1 All-NBAer (Kobe), 1 All-Star (Kobe)

2007 Finals:

Cavaliers: 1 All-NBAer (Lebron), 1 All-Star (Lebron)

Spurs: 1 All-NBAer (Duncan), 2 All-Stars (Duncan, Parker)

2006 Finals:

Heat: 2-All NBAers (Wade, Shaq), 2 All-Stars (Wade, Shaq)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-Star (Dirk)

The only other two players to reach a finals being the only all-star and all-NBA player are Kobe, Dwight and Lebron, and they both lost (one was swept, other lost in 5 games). Pre-2006 the trend continues, and the 2011 Mavericks are the only championship team this decade to win with only 1 All NBA player (Dirk) and 1 All-Star (Dirk) other than the Pistons (whose remarkable team defense won them the ship, and they got recognition the next year by sending multiple all-stars that people overlooked).

Acting like Dirk has had terrible teammates would be a fallacy, but also acting like he has had the elite help that his other title winning peers have had (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett/Pierce). So though Cuban and Nelson have always put talent around Dirk, in many cases they have let him down and not shown up during his 1st round problems (only in 2007 was the loss truly on Dirk).

As others have mentioned, the statistics also show how important Dirk is to his team's success. His +/- when in any given unit, and their record without him.

So it's not exactly a myth, but can be overstated by many individuals. Still, it's clear during his prime he had NO All-NBA help and minimal All-Star help (Howard in 2007 and Kidd in 2010, both replacements for injured players).

[ThatCoolKid]

I posted this in another thread, so allow me to post it again. Dirk had quality teammates through many of his years, but he never had the help that other greats did during his era. That is, he never had another All-NBA teammate and very few All-star teammates after Nash left (and even Nash was not near the player in Dallas he became in Phoenix.

Let's see the past champions and finalists and see how All-NBAers correlate to success:

2012 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Thunder: 2 All-NBAers (Durant, Westbrook), 2 All-Stars (Durant, Westbrook)

2011 Finals:

Heat: 2 All-NBAers (Lebron, Wade), 3 All-Stars (Lebron, Wade, Bosh)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-star (Dirk)

2010 Finals:

Celtics: 0 All-NBAers, 3 All-Stars (Rondo, Pierce, Garnett)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-Stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2009 Finals:

Magic: 1 All-NBAers (Dwight), 1 All-star (Dwight)

Lakers: 2 All-NBAers (Kobe, Gasol), 2 All-stars (Kobe, Gasol)

2008 Finals:

Celtics: 2 All-NBAers (Garnett, Pierce), 3 All-Stars (Garnett, Pierce, Allen)

Lakers: 1 All-NBAer (Kobe), 1 All-Star (Kobe)

2007 Finals:

Cavaliers: 1 All-NBAer (Lebron), 1 All-Star (Lebron)

Spurs: 1 All-NBAer (Duncan), 2 All-Stars (Duncan, Parker)

2006 Finals:

Heat: 2-All NBAers (Wade, Shaq), 2 All-Stars (Wade, Shaq)

Mavericks: 1 All-NBAer (Dirk), 1 All-Star (Dirk)

The only other two players to reach a finals being the only all-star and all-NBA player are Kobe and Lebron, and they both lost (one was swept). Pre-2006 the trend continues, and the 2011 Mavericks are the only championship team this decade to win with only 1 All NBA player (Dirk) and 1 All-Star (Dirk) other than the Pistons (whose remarkable team defense won them the ship, and they got recognition the next year by sending multiple all-stars that people overlooked).

Acting like Dirk has had terrible teammates would be a fallacy, but also acting like he has had the elite help that his other title winning peers have had (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett/Pierce). So though Cuban and Nelson have always put talent around Dirk, in many cases they have let him down and not shown up during his 1st round problems (only in 2007 was the loss truly on Dirk).

As others have mentioned, the statistics also show how important Dirk is to his team's success. His +/- when in any given unit, and their record without him.

So it's not exactly a myth, but can be overstated by many individuals. Still, it's clear during his prime he had NO All-NBA help and minimal All-Star help (Howard in 2007 and Kidd in 2010, both replacements for injured players).

From your list, Dwight also made the finals being the only All-NBA player or All-star.

[guy]

The idea that certain players won more just cause they had better teammates is such a black and white and flawed argument. It is not that simple at all and completely ignores how certain players are easier to build around. People have brought up Duncan and Bird. If Duncan or Bird started with the Mavs in 99 instead of Dirk, they most likely aren't playing on the exact same teams to present day. In fact, they are probably playing on better teams, because those two are easier to build around. And even if they were playing on the same teams, they are still probably more successful just cause they are better and more impactful players due to their more dominant play which is a combination of their greater all around play while basically being a slightly worse, equal, or better at everything Dirk is great at. Dirk in some ways is an easy and hard player to build around. He's easy because him flourishing doesn't really get in the way of his teammates and his durability/longevity which gives his team alot more chances and trial and error to get it "right", which IMO is what basically happened in 2011. He's hard because he's only a great scorer and rebounder (and he's really not that great of a rebounder), while not being much of a playmaker or defender at all. Duncan and Bird are just easier players to build around because they allow their teammates to flourish and don't get in the way, while basically being just as good or better then Dirk at pretty much everything.