THE GREAT DEBATE: The #2 Greatest Player of All-Time

[ripthekik]

pauk copy and pasted from a website and now he's the guy that nominated?
so all we have to do is copy paste a bunch of articles for you to read now is it?

plus this thing is a joke.. why do you get the ultimate power and authority to decide on behalf of ISH? at least name the list "THE GREAT DEBATE: WILLC's Greatest players of all time"

[AlphaWolf24]

Quit posting in topics you dont like. Simple solution.

GOAT threads here are like Spam...every once in awhile you just can't help it.

especially this one..."hey guy's....l got a great idea!...lets do a GOAT thread.......copy and paste from the 1,000's of other GOAT's threads nd I will pick a answer....if it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside..."

(cue the music....)...duuuhh...duhh...dunnnnaa....dunnaaa.. .dunt...dunt.

[AlphaWolf24]

pauk copy and pasted from a website and now he's the guy that nominated?
so all we have to do is copy paste a bunch of articles for you to read now is it?

plus this thing is a joke.. why do you get the ultimate power and authority to decide on behalf of ISH? at least name the list "THE GREAT DEBATE: WILLC's Greatest players of all time"

not just him....but 90% of everyone else did too....

sp predictable.

[Gotterdammerung]

Since I put in Wilt Chamberlain as the greatest player of all time, this is my second greatest:

Ralph Sampson.



Seriously, it is Bill Russell. The only player more competitive than Jordan, and the only player who maxed out his talent the NANOSECOND he entered the league, and the only player who stopped Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.

He revolutionized the game with his unique brand of defense. What was unique about his defense? He stayed on his feet UNTIL the shot left the offensive player's hand, and was quick enough to block or deflect it. At the same time, he kept the ball in play so he could fire off passes to streaking Celtics downcourt for easy buckets. That impact forced the opposing team's offense to shoot away from him, and into uncomfortable positions.

I don't have to cite stats - they're largely context-dependent, but Bill Russell was one of the two or three greatest rebounders of all time: he rebounded DIAGONALLY. He rebounded in traffic, unlike most stat-padders. He rebounded intelligently, and fired off outlet passes in one motion. His stats rose across the board during the money season.

Basically, unlike greats like Wilt or Jordan, Russell sublimated his ego for the sake of winning alone and bagged 11 in 13 years.

[jlip]

Since I put in Wilt Chamberlain as the greatest player of all time, this is my second greatest:

Ralph Sampson.



Seriously, it is Bill Russell. The only player more competitive than Jordan, and the only player who maxed out his talent the NANOSECOND he entered the league, and the only player who stopped Wilt Chamberlain in his prime.

He revolutionized the game with his unique brand of defense. What was unique about his defense? He stayed on his feet UNTIL the shot left the offensive player's hand, and was quick enough to block or deflect it. At the same time, he kept the ball in play so he could fire off passes to streaking Celtics downcourt for easy buckets. That impact forced the opposing team's offense to shoot away from him, and into uncomfortable positions.

I don't have to cite stats - they're largely context-dependent, but Bill Russell was one of the two or three greatest rebounders of all time: he rebounded DIAGONALLY. He rebounded in traffic, unlike most stat-padders. He rebounded intelligently, and fired off outlet passes in one motion. His stats rose across the board during the money season.

Basically, unlike greats like Wilt or Jordan, Russell sublimated his ego for the sake of winning alone and bagged 11 in 13 years.

Bolded are a couple of reasons I had in ranking Russell over MJ.

[Gotterdammerung]

Bolded are a couple of reasons I had in ranking Russell over MJ.

So Russell is your #2 guy as well?

[Freedom Kid7]

I have a feeling AlphaWolf will troll this thread by voting and arguing for Kobe, seeing as how his argumentitive skills are actually very good and he can be convincing. I think the reason for this though is instead of a silly poll, to create a debate and discussion, which I'm down for. You just can't take it too seriously.


Anyways, this is Kareem v. Magic v. Russell. I kind of wanna vote for Magic here seeing as how he helped push the Lakers into a Dynasty level creating a great duo with Kareem and being the most unique and skilled PG ever, but as many people have pointed out, his defense sucked and he was a sidekick/1b for a long time, and he never was able to make a team winners without Kareem (keep in mind while Magic played well without Kareem in '80, I doubt that team is in contention without Kareem). So with that said, I'll stop talking about Magic, who is still a top player of all time. I feel Russell has a case too, because honestly, he had the best intangibles of a ball player (seriously, Russell's mentality>Jordans). He had great BballIQ, great at passing and finding the open man, possibly the best defensive anchor of all time (he singlehandedly changed the Celtics defense forever), and made his teammates develop with the correct attitude. He was a ferocious rebounder as well Plus, he was the best Goddamn winner, the most clutch man in basketball, and would find a way to win however possible. However, I can't put him over the top considering the fact he was not as much of an offensive presence and did not shoot above .500 all that often, in addition to the fact you can always make an argument that Wilt was bettter (which is something I do not believe, but it is something to take into account)

Now onto Kareem. First off, he was gifted in basketball since highschool. He led his highschool team to a couple of New York Catholic City Championships, and having one team where they only lost two games or something ridiculous. But that's just highschool. In UCLA, Lew Alcindor (his original name) was absurdly good. He led the Bruins to 3 NCAA titles, got a bunch of College Player of the Year Awards, broke numerous records, got the MOP in the NCAA Tournament 3 times, and got the dunk banned from competition for a little while. This was an incredible blessing, for because of it, Lew developed the Sky Hook, made it his go-to-move, and is still probably the best go to move. Anyways, after college he got selected number 1 in the draft for obvious reasons and made the Milwaukee Bucks go from 27 - 55 to 56 - 26 in a year. Then Lew makes Milwaukee go 66 - 16 and he wins the Championship for Oscar Robertson, Milwaukee, and his teammates. He posts 32/16/3 in the RS and 27/17/3 in the playoffs. Gets MVP and FMVP The nest season he changes his name to Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I feel that things change for him here, but whatever. So throughout the years Milwaukee stays elite due to his incredible play where he posts 31/16/5 with 4 blocks in the 3 seasons after 71 and they go to the 1974 NBA Finals where he makes a gamewinner, but they frikkin lose the series so it's all for nothing. After a while and posting good numbers, he gets traded to LA and makes LA competitive again. Kareem stays elite. In 77, Kareem averages 26/13/4 with 3 blocks and plays great defense, shoots with incredible effeciency as always and all. However, he loses to Bill Walton. Even though this happens, Kareem stays elite and remains a great player for many years. Then, in 1980, he forms a great duo with Magic Johnson, gets MVP and gets robbed of a FMVP, but finally brings a championship to LA. Kareem stays the man in LA and wins two more rings for them in 82 and 85. Then Magic Takes ovver in 87, and they win 2 more rings. Kareem retires in 89. Now, you may be thinking, why the hell did I just post that? The reason is to point out what he did to teams and how he played on an individual level. He averaged incredible numbers and was a career 24/11/4 for 20 years. That's right. Twenty years. He was elite for I'd say 75% of them, a 20+/10+ center for Twelve years. He could score 20 or more points until Magic took over in 87. All this goes to show his impressive longevity that is unmatched. He had an impact on teams that were pretty ridiculous, such as making Milwaukee a title contender immediatly and reviving LA basketball and getting a chip (even if he needed help). He was an MVP for six years as well (his notable ones are in 71, 74, 77 and 80) and a defensive anchor and offensive mismatch (few can say they guarded Kareem well). So, what's the moral of my post. Kareem played for twenty years. That's unheard of. He was elite for about 15 of them and an all star for 19 of them. That's unheard of. He impacted teams in a way only a center could, and posted up great numbers (35/18/4/2/4 in the 77 playoffs at his peak... Goddamn crazy). He does get points marked down because he still did get beat at his peak, he could not win with an elite PG and I'd go onto say Walton's was better (call me crazy but whatever), but his longevity, legacy, skyhook, and impact make him a fantastic player.

TL;DR - Kareem's impact, longevity, legacy and skyhook are the reasons I'd say he's one of the greatest. He may have been a bitch at times, but he still has accomplishments that few rival, a longevity so unheard of, and has team accomplishment of improving a small market team so quickly and bringing home the gold for a small market team, something few can do.

[Asukal]

Bill Russell

Just my opinion. I cannot make factual statements since I didn't watch him but here are my thoughts:
- Greatest defensive anchor of all time.
- Most unselfish great.
- Ultimate team player.
- Held his own against Wilt despite being not on par with Wilt's physical abilities.

[andgar923]

Now #2 will be much more interesting...

This.

I'll take Bird based on all around skill, Kareem on his resume.

Either one can go 2.

[andgar923]

GOAT threads here are like Spam...every once in awhile you just can't help it.

especially this one..."hey guy's....l got a great idea!...lets do a GOAT thread.......copy and paste from the 1,000's of other GOAT's threads nd I will pick a answer....if it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside..."

(cue the music....)...duuuhh...duhh...dunnnnaa....dunnaaa.. .dunt...dunt.

I actually agree with him.

[Freedom Kid7]

I actually agree with him.

It's the offseason though. It's not incredibly surprising stuff like this is popping up

[DatAsh]

I have a feeling AlphaWolf will troll this thread by voting and arguing for Kobe, seeing as how his argumentitive skills are actually very good and he can be convincing. I think the reason for this though is instead of a silly poll, to create a debate and discussion, which I'm down for. You just can't take it too seriously.


Anyways, this is Kareem v. Magic v. Russell. I kind of wanna vote for Magic here seeing as how he helped push the Lakers into a Dynasty level creating a great duo with Kareem and being the most unique and skilled PG ever, but as many people have pointed out, his defense sucked and he was a sidekick/1b for a long time, and he never was able to make a team winners without Kareem (keep in mind while Magic played well without Kareem in '80, I doubt that team is in contention without Kareem). So with that said, I'll stop talking about Magic, who is still a top player of all time. I feel Russell has a case too, because honestly, he had the best intangibles of a ball player (seriously, Russell's mentality>Jordans). He had great BballIQ, great at passing and finding the open man, possibly the best defensive anchor of all time (he singlehandedly changed the Celtics defense forever), and made his teammates develop with the correct attitude. He was a ferocious rebounder as well Plus, he was the best Goddamn winner, the most clutch man in basketball, and would find a way to win however possible. However, I can't put him over the top considering the fact he was not as much of an offensive presence and did not shoot above .500 all that often, in addition to the fact you can always make an argument that Wilt was bettter (which is something I do not believe, but it is something to take into account)

Now onto Kareem. First off, he was gifted in basketball since highschool. He led his highschool team to a couple of New York Catholic City Championships, and having one team where they only lost two games or something ridiculous. But that's just highschool. In UCLA, Lew Alcindor (his original name) was absurdly good. He led the Bruins to 3 NCAA titles, got a bunch of College Player of the Year Awards, broke numerous records, got the MOP in the NCAA Tournament 3 times, and got the dunk banned from competition for a little while. This was an incredible blessing, for because of it, Lew developed the Sky Hook, made it his go-to-move, and is still probably the best go to move. Anyways, after college he got selected number 1 in the draft for obvious reasons and made the Milwaukee Bucks go from 27 - 55 to 56 - 26 in a year. Then Lew makes Milwaukee go 66 - 16 and he wins the Championship for Oscar Robertson, Milwaukee, and his teammates. He posts 32/16/3 in the RS and 27/17/3 in the playoffs. Gets MVP and FMVP The nest season he changes his name to Kareem Abdul Jabbar. I feel that things change for him here, but whatever. So throughout the years Milwaukee stays elite due to his incredible play where he posts 31/16/5 with 4 blocks in the 3 seasons after 71 and they go to the 1974 NBA Finals where he makes a gamewinner, but they frikkin lose the series so it's all for nothing. After a while and posting good numbers, he gets traded to LA and makes LA competitive again. Kareem stays elite. In 77, Kareem averages 26/13/4 with 3 blocks and plays great defense, shoots with incredible effeciency as always and all. However, he loses to Bill Walton. Even though this happens, Kareem stays elite and remains a great player for many years. Then, in 1980, he forms a great duo with Magic Johnson, gets MVP and gets robbed of a FMVP, but finally brings a championship to LA. Kareem stays the man in LA and wins two more rings for them in 82 and 85. Then Magic Takes ovver in 87, and they win 2 more rings. Kareem retires in 89. Now, you may be thinking, why the hell did I just post that? The reason is to point out what he did to teams and how he played on an individual level. He averaged incredible numbers and was a career 24/11/4 for 20 years. That's right. Twenty years. He was elite for I'd say 75% of them, a 20+/10+ center for Twelve years. He could score 20 or more points until Magic took over in 87. All this goes to show his impressive longevity that is unmatched. He had an impact on teams that were pretty ridiculous, such as making Milwaukee a title contender immediatly and reviving LA basketball and getting a chip (even if he needed help). He was an MVP for six years as well (his notable ones are in 71, 74, 77 and 80) and a defensive anchor and offensive mismatch (few can say they guarded Kareem well). So, what's the moral of my post. Kareem played for twenty years. That's unheard of. He was elite for about 15 of them and an all star for 19 of them. That's unheard of. He impacted teams in a way only a center could, and posted up great numbers (35/18/4/2/4 in the 77 playoffs at his peak... Goddamn crazy). He does get points marked down because he still did get beat at his peak, he could not win with an elite PG and I'd go onto say Walton's was better (call me crazy but whatever), but his longevity, legacy, skyhook, and impact make him a fantastic player.

TL;DR - Kareem's impact, longevity, legacy and skyhook are the reasons I'd say he's one of the greatest. He may have been a bitch at times, but he still has accomplishments that few rival, a longevity so unheard of, and has team accomplishment of improving a small market team so quickly and bringing home the gold for a small market team, something few can do.

Great Post.

[DatAsh]

bump

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm confused. If the OP decides on the best argument for the best player, then that player is eliminated from future threads. Right?

[Owl]

I'm confused. If the OP decides on the best argument for the best player, then that player is eliminated from future threads. Right?

Yup. Best argument takes the spot, so naturally that player isn't eligible for the next spot.