THE GREAT DEBATE: The #3 Greatest Player of All-Time

[Patrick Chewing]

Magic?? It's Wilt the Stilt. Ahead of Russell IMO even.

[Freedom Kid7]

I'm nominating Kareem.

I will come up with a post later though giving analysis. It's 11 down here and I need some sleep

[jongib369]

This has to be Wilt IMO. I mean were talking about a guy who held Kareem (who is getting a decent amount of votes for 3) to 47% shooting if I'm not mistaken...the ONLY other defender to do better is the great Nate Thurmond, while he faced Kareem at a younger age than Chamberlain did...BOTH were past there prime post injuries. He out Rebounded Kareem, FG% was better. Was known to block the skyhook, imagine if he was young?

And then, you COULD make a case for chamberlain over russell...how could anyone say Chamberlain wouldnt of done as good with Red Aurbach a GREAT manipulator as his head coach? A coach from chamberlains rookie year onwards who he respected surrounded by HOF players that were young, and able to avoid injuries. Teams with DEPTH..Unlike the Wilt laker teams who basically had no bench. There is a reason why Red tried to get Chamberlain, he just later said he couldn't Win as much IMO because he didn't want to say Russell could of been replaced with Wilt...to much of a bond to disrespect the dynasty like that... in 67.. might be wrong could of been with lakers) RUSSELL ADMITTED chamberlain was playing the same role he did, but better...More assists, rebounds, points, fg%, more blocks.

Id go more into it, but once again I know someone could make a better argument then me...

[Legends66NBA7]

This has to be Wilt IMO. I mean were talking about a guy who held Kareem (who is getting a decent amount of votes for 3) to 47% shooting if I'm not mistaken...the ONLY other defender to do better is the great Nate Thurmond, while he faced Kareem at a younger age than Chamberlain did...BOTH were past there prime post injuries. He out Rebounded Kareem, FG% was better. Was known to block the skyhook, imagine if he was young?

In Kareem's defense, he was younger but his body wasn't able to handle the physical defense yet by the tougher veteran minds of Wilt and Nate. I agree with the other stats, but Wilt also was playing a different role and was not always called upon to score at that stage of his career and yes blocking Kareem's skyhook is impressive at any stage of one's career.

That said, should be a great argument between these two. Might as well flip a coin.

[MetsPackers]

Would vote for Kobe but......jk

Gotta go with KAJ. I'm sure someone could make a case for Wilt over him but if KAJ is out of the top 4 the list will be off the a bad start. I'm surprised Russell got number 2, not that its a bad thing, just unexpected. Glad people made a case for him.

I kinda wish instead of these top 100 threads we could just have a highly debated top 10 with like 5 days of time for lots of cases to be made. Getting a legit top 10 with tons of responses would be much better and more interesting than these top 100s where people just respond with "Kobe"

[Asukal]

This has to be Wilt IMO. I mean were talking about a guy who held Kareem (who is getting a decent amount of votes for 3) to 47% shooting if I'm not mistaken...the ONLY other defender to do better is the great Nate Thurmond, while he faced Kareem at a younger age than Chamberlain did...BOTH were past there prime post injuries. He out Rebounded Kareem, FG% was better. Was known to block the skyhook, imagine if he was young?

And then, you COULD make a case for chamberlain over russell...how could anyone say Chamberlain wouldnt of done as good with Red Aurbach a GREAT manipulator as his head coach? A coach from chamberlains rookie year onwards who he respected surrounded by HOF players that were young, and able to avoid injuries. Teams with DEPTH..Unlike the Wilt laker teams who basically had no bench. There is a reason why Red tried to get Chamberlain, he just later said he couldn't Win as much IMO because he didn't want to say Russell could of been replaced with Wilt...to much of a bond to disrespect the dynasty like that... in 67.. might be wrong could of been with lakers) RUSSELL ADMITTED chamberlain was playing the same role he did, but better...More assists, rebounds, points, fg%, more blocks.

Id go more into it, but once again I know someone could make a better argument then me...

This is flat out wrong and is disrespectful to Russell's game. You can't use the what if argument for Wilt. We judge them based on facts. It is true that Wilt has better tools as a player than Russell, but Russell is a greater player than Wilt imo.

Also just because he did good against 1 man (Kareem), are we supposed to take that as a measuring stick and put him as the GOAT center? The game is 5 on 5, we should take what he did on that basis not what he did against 1 person. Because if we take that logic then Shawn Marion must be ranked very high on the all time list for posterizing Lebron James in the 2011 finals.

[jongib369]

This is flat out wrong and is disrespectful to Russell's game. You can't use the what if argument for Wilt. We judge them based on facts. It is true that Wilt has better tools as a player than Russell, but Russell is a greater player than Wilt imo.

Also just because he did good against 1 man (Kareem), are we supposed to take that as a measuring stick and put him as the GOAT center? The game is 5 on 5, we should take what he did on that basis not what he did against 1 person. Because if we take that logic then Shawn Marion must be ranked very high on the all time list for posterizing Lebron James in the 2011 finals.

Like I said, i could of gone into more detail...I listed one man, but we both know it wasnt just one man he did good against...the only one I felt like mentioning because hes considered the GOAT center by many...atleast on offense....I could say How Chamberlain did against other peers like Nate Thurmond, Walt bellamy, Willis Reed, wes unseld etc...and then also compare how kareem did against those exact players and youd see that chamberlain while they were in there prime, and so was he out played them more so than Kareem did while they were past there prime and he in his peak seasons. Nate Held Kareem to below 45% shooting...Wilts average against Thurmond was above 50%....possibly above 55% (off the top of my head so sorry if Im mistaken)

I could Point out how kareem played multiple games against the guy Wilt scored 100 on, yet never came anywhere close to that (not easy to do lol, and not really a fair argument but still)

I didnt mean to disrespect Russell, all I'm saying is he fell into the pefrect situation more so than chamberlain did...and With Red, Im sure he could of molded chamberlain into a better player mentally than he turned out to be (some would say). Russell is a legend and deff deserves to be 2 or 3...can be argued 1...all Im saying is that Chamberlain does have the tools, especially if coached properly from the get go could of been a lot more than he was for multiple reasons

looking and comparing the situations they were put in is fact...and from what i can tell, he was put in a FAR better system than chamberlain. The what if is a toss up though.

[jongib369]

This is flat out wrong and is disrespectful to Russell's game. You can't use the what if argument for Wilt. We judge them based on facts. It is true that Wilt has better tools as a player than Russell, but Russell is a greater player than Wilt imo.

Also just because he did good against 1 man (Kareem), are we supposed to take that as a measuring stick and put him as the GOAT center? The game is 5 on 5, we should take what he did on that basis not what he did against 1 person. Because if we take that logic then Shawn Marion must be ranked very high on the all time list for posterizing Lebron James in the 2011 finals.

btw, Im talking about 28 H2H matchups...Not just a series so your Merion-lebron example is not the same IMO

[Owl]

Most wouldn't agree. Especially those who were alive and watching or participating when they played. That's not opinion either. They had votes and Russell won them.

Not strictly true, certainly not as absolute as you suggest.

Whilst both were in the NBA together:
The press put Wilt in the All NBA First team 7 times to Russell 2
They got 4 MVPs each.
Wilt claimed, at least (we don't have all the records), two press based MVPs (U.S. Metropolitan Sportswriters Association Sam Davis Memorial Award and U.S. Basketball Writers Association) the first in 1962, the later in 1964 in years when other players took the player vote MVP (Russell in '62 and Robertson in '64). Only in '63 and '65 does Russell have a consensus (as far as we are aware) as the best player and best center, Wilt has (as far as we're aware) four such years.

[DatAsh]

Not strictly true, certainly not as absolute as you suggest.

Whilst both were in the NBA together:
The press put Wilt in the All NBA First team 7 times to Russell 2
They got 4 MVPs each.
Wilt claimed, at least (we don't have all the records), two press based MVPs (U.S. Metropolitan Sportswriters Association Sam Davis Memorial Award and U.S. Basketball Writers Association) the first in 1962, the later in 1964 in years when other players took the player vote MVP (Russell in '62 and Robertson in '64). Only in '63 and '65 does Russell have a consensus (as far as we are aware) as the best player and best center, Wilt has (as far as we're aware) four such years.

I do think it depends on the year in question. The only years I really see the argument for Wilt being better are 64' 66' 67' 68'. A lot of people might include 62' in there as well because of the 50ppg, but I don't.

[Owl]

I do think it depends on the year in question. The only years I really see the argument for Wilt being better are 64' 66' 67' 68'. A lot of people might include 62' in there as well because of the 50ppg, but I don't.

My comment wasn't with regard to whether there was a subjective case (though interesting that you don't think there's a case for 1960 All-NBA first team, MVP Wilt), it's the implication that Russell was considered clearly better, when actually the accolades when they were both active were pretty evenly split with Wilt having the edge.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Russell #2

[DatAsh]

My comment wasn't with regard to whether there was a subjective case (though interesting that you don't think there's a case for 1960 All-NBA first team, MVP Wilt), it's the implication that Russell was considered clearly better, when actually the accolades when they were both active were pretty evenly split with Wilt having the edge.

Again it depends on the years in question. I feel there were a few years Russell was clearly better, a few years when Wilt was clearly better, and few in between.

[G.O.A.T]

Not strictly true, certainly not as absolute as you suggest.

Whilst both were in the NBA together:
The press put Wilt in the All NBA First team 7 times to Russell 2
They got 4 MVPs each.
Wilt claimed, at least (we don't have all the records), two press based MVPs (U.S. Metropolitan Sportswriters Association Sam Davis Memorial Award and U.S. Basketball Writers Association) the first in 1962, the later in 1964 in years when other players took the player vote MVP (Russell in '62 and Robertson in '64). Only in '63 and '65 does Russell have a consensus (as far as we are aware) as the best player and best center, Wilt has (as far as we're aware) four such years.

I'll dig up my records, but during Russell's prime years (through 1965) he owned Wilt in MVP awards voted by the press or players. I don't think Wilt actually won one in 1962, I was just going through my 1962 file last night looking for block numbers. There is an article that says Wilt won the MVP but on the same day there are many more saying Russell did. Even articles with some voting breakdowns giving it to Russell. Here are the major MVP awards from that season. The basketball writers selected Russell link and of course we know he won the NBA award http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._1962.html#mvp. As far as the all-nba voting, even most writers found this a hollow victory for Wilt link The players and coaches, just mocked it link.

Of course we also know that Russell was voted the Greatest Player of All-Time in 1970 by a comfortable Margin when the NBA selected it's Silver Anniversary team. Couple that with a current tally where I can find 5-6 people who pick Russell for every one who picks Wilt (among the players, coaches, media of that era) and I feel secure in saying that Russell was widely considered the greater player while he was playing.

Wilt was the first to do it in 1960 as a rookie, but I have Russell taking both MVPs in '61, '62, '63 and '65. Wilt returning the favor, though with Russell past his peak, from '66 to '68. 4-4 is my tally.

I promise you I won't try and distort anything, thanks for calling me out.

[Owl]

I'll dig up my records, but during Russell's prime years (through 1965) he owned Wilt in MVP awards voted by the press or players. I don't think Wilt actually won one in 1962, I was just going through my 1962 file last night looking for block numbers. There is an article that says Wilt won the MVP but on the same day there are many more saying Russell did. Even articles with some voting breakdowns giving it to Russell. Here are the major MVP awards from that season. The basketball writers selected Russell link and of course we know he won the NBA award http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._1962.html#mvp. As far as the all-nba voting, even most writers found this a hollow victory for Wilt link The players and coaches, just mocked it link.

Of course we also know that Russell was voted the Greatest Player of All-Time in 1970 by a comfortable Margin when the NBA selected it's Silver Anniversary team. Couple that with a current tally where I can find 5-6 people who pick Russell for every one who picks Wilt (among the players, coaches, media of that era) and I feel secure in saying that Russell was widely considered the greater player while he was playing.

Wilt was the first to do it in 1960 as a rookie, but I have Russell taking both MVPs in '61, '62, '63 and '65. Wilt returning the favor, though with Russell past his peak, from '66 to '68. 4-4 is my tally.

I promise you I won't try and distort anything, thanks for calling me out.

If you wanted to say to Russell's peak then okay you're now saying that, but that's not how the initial post read.

Russell did indeed claim the USBW MVP in '62, it's the MS Sam Davis Memorial MVP that he didn't get, I tried to make the distinction between the two in my post above. As such Russell claimed the official MVP from the players and one award from the writers, plus the Sporting News MVP from front offices/coaches(though as noted in the thread linked to below the front offices tended to more or less follow the official MVP when it was player vote but since then has become more independent) whilst Wilt claimed one sportswriters MVP and the All-League honors. 3-2 to Russell (though I'm not sure whether to count TSN at that time because of the sheep like following, but perhaps because Russell got the official MVP one might give him the edge).

Anyway my main source is here http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4421 but if you don't trust Robert Bradley, googling will find you the newspapers.

One opinion piece found it a hollow victory and whilst you'd probably prefer the official MVP, it's official and I'm guessing it came with more prize money, that doesn't mean that Wilt wasn't favoured by two other sources. It might also feel hollow because the Celtics were expected to win again, but that doesn't make Chamberlain the worse player.
And Red Auerbach and the Celtics family unit mocked Wilt being on the 1st team. Big surprise. Bob Cousy said that the Celtics "might have won one [title] with Chamberlain but no more than that". Might! If you trust members of those Celtic teams to be impartial judges of Russell versus Chamberlain then that's up to you. I don't.

Of course we also know that Russell was voted the Greatest Player of All-Time in 1970 by a comfortable Margin when the NBA selected it's Silver Anniversary team. Couple that with a current tally where I can find 5-6 people who pick Russell for every one who picks Wilt (among the players, coaches, media of that era) and I feel secure in saying that Russell was widely considered the greater player while he was playing.

In 1980 if we are no longer talking about his contemporaries he was voted best ever. Was he voted the best player in 1970? I have no awareness of this, though of course that does not make it untrue. I wasn't sure if I could recall there being a tally for the '80 vote in any case, so links would be appreciated.

If it is only the '80 one you're referring to and we're looking at non-contemporaries, then Wilt has ranked ahead of Russell in 6 out of 7 book lists of 50/100 greatest type lists (Simmons' TBoB is the exception), Russell was behind Wilt in the AP player of the century (3 and 4th respectively), behind of Chamberlain in 3 of 4 Slam lists, though in other magazine’s Russell has tended to come out on top. Athlon, Beckett and Pete Vecsey in Sport all have Russell ahead, as does Basketball Digest though this was a case of the editor overruling the piece’s main contributor who had Chamberlain at two and Russell at 3. Lacy Banks’ newspaper piece “50 sense” has Chamberlain above Russell. Off the top of my head the magazine’s rankings have tended to be more erratic in general than the books though some of the books lists are also of mixed quality.

In position specific rankings 2 books favour Wilt and one Russell (though one of the two picking Wilt is one of the more eccentric rankings and has MJ as 4th best guard behind Magic, Oscar and West; whilst Dirk whose name is misspelt as 92nd best forward and was in book published in 2009). ESPN columnists had Wilt over Russell, Charley Rosen had Russell higher on position specific rankings though neither source inspires great confidence.

Of web based lists only yours and 2 RealGM rankings and one hoops hype forum go for Russell above Wilt, many more take Chamberlain though I would state that yours and the RealGM ones have been among the better lists, at least in terms of quality of debate/information (though I didn’t read through either of RealGM’s many poll threads properly, just a cursory glance). I don’t know about the present ongoing list on this site but tbh looking at early votes “Oscar Robinson” and seeing suggestions that posters were deterred from voting by the OP running the polls I wouldn’t take it especially seriously. TBH web based ones don’t carry that much weight with me anyway.