THE GREAT DEBATE: The #3 Greatest Player of All-Time

[gigantes]

The Greatest Players of All-Time:

01 - Michael Jordan (nominated by: pauk)
02 - Bill Russell (nominated by: DatAsh)

not sure if you're saying those are the primary nominations for the #3 greatest player of all time or if you're saying those are the two top spots already decided. if the latter:

wilt chamberlain cannot be out of the top two in any rational world. that's just crazy talk. as good as russell was an effective, team-oriented player, chamberlain was still on a whole 'nother level when it came to sheer ability. "greatest" is of course a nebulous term, but when it comes down to a choice, individual ability, stats and records get a slight nod from me when compared to team trophys won and pure skill at being a team player. that's basically what it comes down to between those two players.

fix your chart and then let's talk. the true #3 position should probably be between jabbar and russell, with lebron rapidly coming in to that conversation.

[ThaRegul8r]

It's actually too long with what I wanted to address, and after making sure all the tags and formatting was correct, I find it more trouble than it's worth trying to cut it into segments that fit within the maximum character limit for a post. And the people who are enamored with points and statistics won't understand it anyway, and the people whose minds are made up are already decided, so it's really pointless. G.O.A.T. already did a good job anyway, I had just wanted to come from a different angle and make some points he didn't. I'm not really that interested though in this, as I have no desire to try to convince anyone of anything. I just thought I might make an argument most people wouldn't even think of because it would be something different from the usual.

[Legends66NBA7]

It's actually too long with what I wanted to address, and after making sure all the tags and formatting was correct, I find it more trouble than it's worth trying to cut it into segments that fit within the maximum character limit for a post. And the people who are enamored with points and statistics won't understand it anyway, and the people whose minds are made up are already decided, so it's really pointless. G.O.A.T. already did a good job anyway, I had just wanted to come from a different angle and make some points he didn't.

Is it possible to PM it ?

Would still love to read it.

[Asukal]

It's actually too long with what I wanted to address, and after making sure all the tags and formatting was correct, I find it more trouble than it's worth trying to cut it into segments that fit within the maximum character limit for a post. And the people who are enamored with points and statistics won't understand it anyway, and the people whose minds are made up are already decided, so it's really pointless. G.O.A.T. already did a good job anyway, I had just wanted to come from a different angle and make some points he didn't. I'm not really that interested though in this, as I have no desire to try to convince anyone of anything. I just thought I might make an argument most people wouldn't even think of because it would be something different from the usual.

Post it on a blog and provide the link.

[Force]

Calling Magic #3 just sounds disrespectful even if it might be right. Magic was so great and rare that you don't ever number him. He is in his own category. There has never been another player like him.

Although golf claps to "the next Magic Johnson" fails Billy Owens and Steve Smith for trying.

[LeBird]

Who were the mediocre point guards Bird played with? Tiny was seemlessly replaced with DJ in '84. Both very, very good ball handlers who could run a team. And would you be comfortable with Bird dribbling the ball up court every single posession? I certainly wouldn't. I call that being reliant.

You've misread what I've written. I said any mediocre PG could play with Bird as he wasn't especially reliant on a great PG giving him the kind of chances that he wouldn't otherwise be getting. Bird didn't get that kind of service from any PG he had, regardless. Bird just needed someone to bring it to the half-court then give the ball to him. That's it.

I never said he was reliant on "special" passes or playmaking by his point guards, though. Of course he wasn't. He just needed someone to handle the ball for him.

Ok, but that makes him no different to 90% other Big man/forward players. It simply wasn't his role to bring the ball out anyway.

Bird relied on his teammates to cover him, too. McHale always guarded the opposing teams best SF or PF. Bird very often was given the worst offensive threat to guard, just like Magic.

Bird was far better suited to guarding the PFs - he wasn't as athletic to regularly play opposing SFs (although, he never disgrace himself when asked to, either). He never was embarrassed the way Magic was by an opposing PG, however, and didn't need extra help on his own man. In fact, Bird is probably one of the best team defenders ever.

All that aside, I am just saying every player is reliant on another player. Even if they do have the skills to do something averagely. Often, it isn't their role and the difference is irrelevant. As it is here.

I never said he did. I merely said Magic's playmaking edge outweighed Bird's scoring edge.

I don't know about that. As all-round offensive threats I think they're pretty equal in output; although Bird was less reliant on others to create that output. Whatever you want to say about Magic's ball-handling, he had awesome teammates to pass the ball to for most of his career. Not that Bird didn't but that slight edge you might give to Magic can be accounted for playing in a better team.

lebron is a small foward. Do you not want him dribbling up court and handling the point, then, even though he can? He shouldn't do it because that's not a small forwards job? Leave it to mario Chalmers?

Bird guarded PFs and attacked SFs because it created a mismatch. Much like Lebron carrying the ball. Just because Lebron carries the ball, doesn't mean Bird should do it too. He'd just be wasting energy as the Celtics had a fine PG and Bird is a far better off-the-ball player in comparison to Lebron - so he didn't need to be ball-dominant.

I take your opinion, just don't agree with your reasoning. It's fine though, so please don't take this as some sort of attack. I asked the question since you'll hear people tout Magic higher than Bird and I am yet to hear a reason that I can agree with.

[LeBird]

That doesn't take away from the fact that Magic could have been a 27/28 ppg scorer if he wanted to be.

The scoring ability discrepancy between Magic and Bird is FAAAAR smaller than with CP3 and Durant. I'm not sure why you brought them up.

That's a huge claim that I disagree with. Magic never averaged above 24 in a season (Bird's career average). Although I agree that the difference between Durant's and Paul's scoring is larger than Bird's and Magic's; it's still large enough to get the point across that in terms of scoring they were on different planes.

[Freedom Kid7]

Regarding the Bird vs Magic debate, I feel both were incredible. Larry had less than Magic to work with and overachieved as a basketball player. I feel Magic has the edge due to being a slightly better 'team man', slightly better tangibles, etc. I feel that you could make an argument both ways though

[DatAsh]

It's actually too long with what I wanted to address, and after making sure all the tags and formatting was correct, I find it more trouble than it's worth trying to cut it into segments that fit within the maximum character limit for a post. And the people who are enamored with points and statistics won't understand it anyway, and the people whose minds are made up are already decided, so it's really pointless. G.O.A.T. already did a good job anyway, I had just wanted to come from a different angle and make some points he didn't. I'm not really that interested though in this, as I have no desire to try to convince anyone of anything. I just thought I might make an argument most people wouldn't even think of because it would be something different from the usual.

No such thing as too long if the content is there

I'm sure there's quite a few people on this board who would love to read it.

[Legends66NBA7]

No such thing as too long if the content is there

I'm sure there's quite a few people on this board who would love to read it.

Same here.

Anything from a different angle, I'm all up for it.

[Freedom Kid7]

bump.

[DatAsh]

I should have some free time tomorrow - depending what the "boss" has in mind for me - to write a few things about the 3 guys I think could realistically be called the third greatest player ever.

[Freedom Kid7]

WillC, if you're still doing this, I say pick who you feel made the best argument and move on to the next one. I feel all that needs to be said has been said.

[aau]

That's a huge claim that I disagree with. Magic never averaged above 24 in a season (Bird's career average).

highest scoring seasons

bird 88 - 30p on 22 shots - 5 fta
mag 87 - 24p on 16 shots - 8 fta

.

considering the fact that magic got to the line much better than bird

6 more points on a couple of more shots seems hardly impossible