Odom: Clips are deeper than championship Lakers

[Indian guy]

Basketball, especially playoff basketball, is all about how good your core 2-3 players are. Depth doesn't win you championships. Superstars and stars do, and Lakers have more of those than anybody else in the league.

[BlueandGold]

To be fair the 2008-2010 Finals Laker teams had terrible benches, especially considering how Bynum was out 50% of the time and injured/partially injured 75% of the time.

[EnoughSaid]

Lmao the rotation come Playoff time is going to be 7-8 players. Odom might not even get more than 10-15 minutes.

[KG215]

they are deaper than either championship laker team from 2009 or 2010

kobe had 1 other allstar and his 3rd best player ( odom ) never made an allstar team

bynum was f*** all in the playoffs ( 6ppg and 8ppg? )


so yea kobe won with less help than people think


but the thing about it is... not only are the clippers deaper. today there is 5-6 teams that are deaper than those laker teams because it takes allot more stars to win these days because of the heat douche bag colluding idiots ruining the league


so it doesnt automatically mean this clipper team will win a title.


and ontop of all that... deaper doesnt always mean better... hense ( lakers beating the celtics in 2010 )

How many times are you going to try and play the "Kobe didn't have much help in 2009 and 2010" card? Relative to the rest of the league, those Lakers teams were either the best or second best team in the league and the favorites in the West both years. Yes, in large it was due to them having Kobe, but what other contenders other than the Celtics had three or four All-Stars?

Cleveland - LeBron James, and I guess Mo Williams counts?
Orlando - Dwight Howard and I guess Jameer Nelson counts?
Spurs - Past his prime Tim Duncan and Tony Parker

That was it, and I'm not even sure the Spurs counted as legit contenders in '09 and '10. They might no belong in that group. But compared to the other legit contenders in '09 and '10, Kobe's on All-Star teammate was much better than LeBron's one All-Star teammate and Dwight Howard's one All-Star teammate. Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson weere All-stars because they were good players that one season on a team with one of the best records in the league. Pau Gasol was a multiple time Al-Star and an established star.

Obviously the Celtics had their four All-Stars but Ray Allen was an All-Star one of those years as an injury replacement and wasn't really having an All-Star worthy season. And in 2009 they were removed from the contender discussion as soon as it was announced Garnett would miss the playoffs.

Then you look at the "pseudo-contenders" (Denver, Phoenix, Atlanta, Portland, Dallas) and all of them only had one or two All-Stars. You can keep playing the "Kobe only had one All-Star teammate in '09 and '10" card all you want and I'll keep calling you on it.

[kennethgriffin]

How many times are you going to try and play the "Kobe didn't much help in 2009 and 2010" card? Relative to the rest of the league, those Lakers teams were either the best or second best team in the league and the favorites in the West both years. Yes, in large part it was due to them having Kobe, but what other contenders other than the Celtics had three or four All-Stars?

Cleveland - LeBron James, and I guess Mo Williams counts?
Orlando - Dwight Howard and I guess Jameer Nelson counts?
Spurs - Past his prime Tim Duncan and Tony Parker

That was it, and I'm not even sure the Spurs counted as legit contenders in '09 and '10. They might no belong in that group. But compared to the other legit contenders in '09 and '10, Kobe's on All-Star teammate was much better than LeBron's one All-Star teammate and Dwight Howard's one All-Star teammate. Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson weere All-stars because they were good players that one season on a team with one of the best records in the league. Pau Gasol was a multiple time Al-Star and an established star.

Obviously the Celtics had their four All-Stars but Ray Allen was an All-Star one of those years as an injury replacement and wasn't really having an All-Star worthy season. And in 2009 they were removed from the contender discussion as soon as it was announced Garnett would miss the playoffs.

Then you look at the "pseudo-contenders" (Denver, Phoenix, Atlanta, Portland, Dallas) and all of them only had one or two All-Stars. You can keep playing the "Kobe only had one All-Star teammate in '09 and '10" card all you want and I'll keep calling you on it.

why wouldn't i? he didn't have that much help in comparison to other championship teams throughout history


gasol? a few allstar games off the bench. 0-12 playoff record as lead dog. a couple of third team all nba's ( only way he makes hall of fame is because of some silver medals and a gold in a meaningless euro competition )

not exactly your typical championship 2nd leading man. most are usually sure shot hall of famers and make a ton of all nba teams/allstar games .



Bynum? barely even played. 6ppg in 2009 and 8ppg in 2010. he sat most of the 2nd half every game in the playoffs


fisher? worst starting PG in the nba. no defense and hes lucky kobe took care of the play making responsibilities or his career would have ended a long time ago

odom? never even ONCE made the allstar team. never even ONCE was an all nba player. never even ONCE averaged over 20ppg.


ariza? his career ended the minute he left LA. kobe got him a huge contract and now hes getting bounced around the league. average player at best


artest? worst outside shooter in the nba. absolute liability on offense ever since he got to LA. mainly known for defense and he was already old by the time he got there.



after that... who are we lookin at? sasha? walton? farmar? probably the worst championship bench in nba history




kobe won without another hall of famer. TWICE... only guy to ever do it multiple times


gasol shouldnt make the hall. but even if he does. its still not a deap team compared to other teams that won titles

[Chrono90]

Clippers is a good team but they haven't done a damm thing. Please take action then talk. The Clippers are talking so much before they even do anything.

[BlackVVaves]

KG215, I agree with everything you said...with one caveat.

In relation to other NBA champions, the 2009 and 2010 Lakers were pretty bare. The majority of the champions of the 80s, 90s, and some of the new millennium like the 2005 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, and now 2012 Heat, had a larger scale of dependency from their overall roster.

[BlackVVaves]

Lmao someone just negged me from this thread

[KG215]

why wouldn't i? he didn't have that much help in comparison to other championship teams throughout history

As is the case with almost all of your Kobe arguments, that's true on the surface but, as usual. you fail to put anything into perspective in order to make Kobe look more impressive.

First, winning those two rings as the lead-dog was impressive as it is anytime a player wins multiple rings as the lead-dog. Those two championships are what makes him a top 7-10 player all-time and not a top 15-25 player.

However, winning two rings with "only one other All-Star" does not make them anymore impressive than a lot of other all-time greats winning a championship or two as the best player when you put Kobe's '09 and '10 championships into context. I've already told you why.

The other contenders in '09 and '10 didn't have more "All-Stars" or anymore top-end help than Kobe. In fact, the one-two punch of Kobe and Gasol was quite a bit better than the 1-2 punch of LeBron-Mo, Howard-Jameer, Carmelo-Bilups, etc.

Come playoff time, if you have the two best or two of the three best players in a series, a very good third option like Odom, and other solid role players (comparatively speaking) that know their roles, you're going to succeed. Find me a playoff series in 2009 and 2010 the Lakers weren't the favorites. MAYBE the 2010 Finals?

gasol? a few allstar games off the bench. 0-12 playoff record as lead dog. a couple of third team all nba's ( only way he makes hall of fame is because of some silver medals and a gold in a meaningless euro competition )

Gasol wasn't ever going to succeed as a #1 option in terms of leading teams to deep playoff runs. He was traded to the Lakers and more than flourished as Kobe's second banana. Among the other contenders those years, he as the best second option by a pretty decent margin.

If you want to keep diminishing his role and say he shouldn't be a HOFer, and the only reason he will be one is due to his play in the Olympics and Euroleague, I can't help you. He isn't a first ballot HOFer by any stretch of the imagination but, if/when he makes it, it will be because of a combination o what he accomplished on an international stage AND playing an integral role on two NBA championship teams.

not exactly your typical championship 2nd leading man. most are usually sure shot hall of famers and make a ton of all nba teams/allstar games.

And again, what other contenders had "sure shot hall of famers" as their second best player in '09 and '10?

odom? never even ONCE made the allstar team. never even ONCE was an all nba player. never even ONCE averaged over 20ppg.

What does that have to do with the player he was in 2009 and 2010 in his role? What other contenders in '09 and '10 had a better third option other than the Celtics? Odom fit that team and that system almost perfectly.

ariza? his career ended the minute he left LA. kobe got him a huge contract and now hes getting bounced around the league. average player at best

And what does any of that have to do with how he played in 2009? In the playoffs he averaged 11-4-2-2, shot 50% from the floor, and 48% from three. Not bad production for the #4 option on a team. Was he not better than Pietrus and Rafer Alston in the 2010 Finals?

kobe won without another hall of famer. TWICE... only guy to ever do it multiple times

And who else was going to win with another HOFer in '09 and '10 other than the Celtics? And the Celtics don't even really count in '09. What teams in the West did Kobe and the Lakers have to go through with multiple HOFers?

[KG215]

KG215, I agree with everything you said...with one caveat.

In relation to other NBA champions, the 2009 and 2010 Lakers were pretty bare. The majority of the champions of the 80s, 90s, and some of the new millennium like the 2005 Spurs, 2008 Celtics, and now 2012 Heat, had a larger scale of dependency from their overall roster.

I agree and, if you put those Lakers teams up against the teams you mentioned, there's a very good chance they don't win a championship. Griff and other Kobe stans like to make it seem like Kobe overcame some insurmountable odds to win it all in '09 and '10 when they were the favorites in every playoff series aside from MAYBE the 2010 Finals. And if they weren't the favorites against Boston in '10, they might've been very slight underdogs.

The Celtics in '10 were a very good team but, for a team that was already considered old and past their prime in 2008, they were even older and further past their prime in 2010, and Garnett still wasn't the same player he was in 2008.

It's Griff's inability and/or refusal to not put anything into context that annoys me. This particular argument isn't much different than saying "Shaq didn't/couldn't win a championship" until he had Kobe. Which, on the surface, is factually correct if you don't put anything into context.

[talkingconch]

and that's all they'll do, compete

[kennethgriffin]

I agree and, if you put those Lakers teams up against the teams you mentioned, there's a very good chance they don't win a championship. Griff and other Kobe stans like to make it seem like Kobe overcame some insurmountable odds to win it all in '09 and '10. The Celtics in '10 were a very good team but, for a team that was already considered old and past their prime in 2008, they were even older and further past their prime in 2010, and Garnett still wasn't the same player he was in 2008.

It's Griff's inability and/or refusal to not put anything into context that annoys me. This particular argument isn't much different than saying "Shaq didn't/couldn't win a championship" until he had Kobe. Which, on the surface, is factually correct if you don't put anything into context.

its not kobes fault lebron choked two 60+ win teams away



and as for the 2010 celtics... they were deaper or as deap as any stacked legendary championship team in history AND KOBE STILL BEAT THEM while averaging 30/7/5 in the finals



and kobe had to eliminate the jazz with OKUR, BOOZER, KIRILENKO, MILLSAP and DERON


then kobe had to eliminate the the rockets with BATTIER, YAO, SCOLA, and ARTEST IN HIS PRIME

then kobe had to eliminate the nuggets with CARMELO, BILLUPS, MARTIN, and SMITH

then kobe had to eliminate the magic with GORTAT, HOWARD, LEWIS, NELSON, and TURKOGLU





and in 2010


kobe had to eliminate the OKC thunder with DURANT, GREEN, IBAKA, WESTBROOK and HARDEN


then kobe had to eliminate the jazz with OKUR, BOOZER, KIRILENKO, MILLSAP and DERON

then kobe had to eliminate the suns with BARBOSA, DRAGIC, FRYE, HILL, LOPEZ, NASH, RICHARDSON and STOUDEMIRE

then kobe had to eliminate celtics with RAY, TONY, DAVIS, GARNETT, HOUSE, PIERCE, NATE, RONDO, and RASHEED




sorry kgFu*ckhead .... whether you like it or not ... KOBE beat allot of deap teams. you're just in denial cause your pu*ssy is so fragile it breaks every time kobes name is mentioned. get a grip on reality bro

[Jacks3]

why wouldn't i? he didn't have that much help in comparison to other championship teams throughout history


gasol? a few allstar games off the bench. 0-12 playoff record as lead dog. a couple of third team all nba's ( only way he makes hall of fame is because of some silver medals and a gold in a meaningless euro competition )

not exactly your typical championship 2nd leading man. most are usually sure shot hall of famers and make a ton of all nba teams/allstar games .



Bynum? barely even played. 6ppg in 2009 and 8ppg in 2010. he sat most of the 2nd half every game in the playoffs


fisher? worst starting PG in the nba. no defense and hes lucky kobe took care of the play making responsibilities or his career would have ended a long time ago

odom? never even ONCE made the allstar team. never even ONCE was an all nba player. never even ONCE averaged over 20ppg.


ariza? his career ended the minute he left LA. kobe got him a huge contract and now hes getting bounced around the league. average player at best


artest? worst outside shooter in the nba. absolute liability on offense ever since he got to LA. mainly known for defense and he was already old by the time he got there.



after that... who are we lookin at? sasha? walton? farmar? probably the worst championship bench in nba history




kobe won without another hall of famer. TWICE... only guy to ever do it multiple times


gasol shouldnt make the hall. but even if he does. its still not a deap team compared to other teams that won titles

Very true.

Those teams won because Kobe had one of the greatest playoff stretches in history.

From 08-10 he averaged 30/6/6/2/57% TS with 43 30+ point games and 7 40+ point games and multiple legendary series.

[BlackVVaves]

its not kobes fault lebron choked two 60+ win teams away



and as for the 2010 celtics... they were deaper or as deap as any stacked legendary championship team in history AND KOBE STILL BEAT THEM while averaging 30/7/5 in the finals



and kobe had to eliminate the jazz with OKUR, BOOZER, KIRILENKO, MILLSAP and DERON


then kobe had to eliminate the the rockets with BATTIER, YAO, SCOLA, and ARTEST IN HIS PRIME

then kobe had to eliminate the nuggets with CARMELO, BILLUPS, MARTIN, and SMITH

then kobe had to eliminate the magic with GORTAT, HOWARD, LEWIS, NELSON, and TURKOGLU





and in 2010


kobe had to eliminate the OKC thunder with DURANT, GREEN, IBAKA, WESTBROOK and HARDEN


then kobe had to eliminate the jazz with OKUR, BOOZER, KIRILENKO, MILLSAP and DERON

then kobe had to eliminate the suns with BARBOSA, DRAGIC, FRYE, HILL, LOPEZ, NASH, RICHARDSON and STOUDEMIRE

then kobe had to eliminate celtics with RAY, TONY, DAVIS, GARNETT, HOUSE, PIERCE, NATE, RONDO, and RASHEED




sorry kgFu*ckhead .... whether you like it or not ... KOBE beat allot of deap teams. you're just in denial cause your pu*ssy is so fragile it breaks every time kobes name is mentioned. get a grip on reality bro

Chill out dude.

[BlackVVaves]

I agree and, if you put those Lakers teams up against the teams you mentioned, there's a very good chance they don't win a championship. Griff and other Kobe stans like to make it seem like Kobe overcame some insurmountable odds to win it all in '09 and '10 when they were the favorites in every playoff series aside from MAYBE the 2010 Finals. And if they weren't the favorites against Boston in '10, they might've been very slight underdogs.

The Celtics in '10 were a very good team but, for a team that was already considered old and past their prime in 2008, they were even older and further past their prime in 2010, and Garnett still wasn't the same player he was in 2008.

It's Griff's inability and/or refusal to not put anything into context that annoys me. This particular argument isn't much different than saying "Shaq didn't/couldn't win a championship" until he had Kobe. Which, on the surface, is factually correct if you don't put anything into context.

Yea I agree with you. Griffey and his stanhood logic certainly takes facts and warps them for his own Kobe-riden agenda.

Like everything in this world, you must always observe the context surrounding a situation, to effectively adhere to the truth. In this case, it's not to take away anything from Kobe, as he was brilliant overall in those years, but to prevent the misconception that stans would like perpetuate, which is that Kobe had ZERO help and is a god among men.