Shaq vs Bird

[Mass Debator]

Who has Shaq over Bird on their all-time list?

[Solefade]

Shaq would be on the top of most lists if it was just peak, but resume wise i don't think it's that debatable

[oarabbus]

Imagine Bird with even Gay/Butler/Hayward/Parsons athleticism. GOAT. Sh1ts on Jordan.

[Mass Debator]

Shaq would be on the top of most lists if it was just peak, but resume wise i don't think it's that debatable

But more 1 championship and 1 more FMVP.
Or is Bird's 2 more MVPs greater than that? Shaq played way longer too...

[Mr Exlax]

Are we talking career accomplishments or are we talking about just as a player?

[Mass Debator]

Are we talking career accomplishments or are we talking about just as a player?

Isn't it about finding a balance of both? Or else a lot of people would be putting Lebron and Wilt just above almost everyone.

[Mr Exlax]

Isn't it about finding a balance of both? Or else a lot of people would be putting Lebron and Wilt just above almost everyone.

I have tried, but I can't find a balance.

[Milbuck]

Peak Shaq > Peak Bird on both ends of the floor without a doubt.

But all-time lists aren't just about peaks, so I'd go with Bird.

[Mass Debator]

I have tried, but I can't find a balance.

What did you really mean when you said "as a player"?

[Mass Debator]

Peak Shaq > Peak Bird on both ends of the floor without a doubt.

But all-time lists aren't just about peaks, so I'd go with Bird.

Do you happen to believe that the rival between Magic and Bird really prop them up? Or maybe his skin color? I've never seen a full game of Larry Bird, but I have my doubts that he had a prime that matched Shaq. His career ended short too. All I see is 2 more MVPs than Shaq which many believed that the way Shaq dominated is deserving of more.

[Mr Exlax]

What did you really mean when you said "as a player"?

As a player I mean peak and the impact they have on the game.

[Milbuck]

Do you happen to believe that the rival between Magic and Bird really prop them up? Or maybe his skin color? I've never seen a full game of Larry Bird, but I have my doubts that he had a prime that matched Shaq. His career ended short too. All I see is 2 more MVPs than Shaq which many believed that the way Shaq dominated is deserving of more.

You really gotta go back and watch some Bird tape man, the dude was unreal. He was so physically limited compared to guys like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Durant. But he made up for it with unbelievable hands and BBIQ that was just off the charts. He just understood the game on another level than other players. He was one of the GOAT shooters, great rebounder for his position, had great vision, scoring arsenal, one of the greatest thinkers of the game, etc. The biggest knock on Bird was his limitations as a defender (which stemmed from his physical profile) and even then it's vastly overstated most of the time.

I think marketing definitely had a lot to do with his legend being substantially more prominent than Shaq's. But having a rivalry with Magic didn't benefit him that much.. yeah the rivalry was great for the sport and helped make both players even more iconic, but at the core of it they were competing against each other. Any image and marketing success he got from the rivalry was compensated for by the fact that he had to deal with one of the greatest players ever during his era. Can you imagine what Bird would've accomplished had Magic never existed? Or vice versa?

I don't disagree with you that you could make the case for Shaq > Bird overall as a player (for their careers, peak isn't really debatable). All-time list though, it really depends on what you value as a basketball fan.

[Mass Debator]

As a player I mean peak and the impact they have on the game.

So to you, who do you rank higher using the "as a player" criteria and as a "career accomplishments" criteria? And ultimately, who do you have higher?

[Mr Exlax]

So to you, who do you rank higher using the "as a player" criteria and as a "career accomplishments" criteria? And ultimately, who do you have higher?

I have Shaq as the better player alltime.

Looking at everything, I think I have to actually give Bird the nod in the career accomplishments department.

[Mass Debator]

You really gotta go back and watch some Bird tape man, the dude was unreal. He was so physically limited compared to guys like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Durant. But he made up for it with unbelievable hands and BBIQ that was just off the charts. He just understood the game on another level than other players. He was one of the GOAT shooters, great rebounder for his position, had great vision, scoring arsenal, one of the greatest thinkers of the game, etc. The biggest knock on Bird was his limitations as a defender (which stemmed from his physical profile) and even then it's vastly overstated most of the time.

I think marketing definitely had a lot to do with his legend being substantially more prominent than Shaq's. But having a rivalry with Magic didn't benefit him that much.. yeah the rivalry was great for the sport and helped make both players even more iconic, but at the core of it they were competing against each other. Can you imagine what Bird would've accomplished had Magic never existed? Or vice versa?

I don't disagree with you that you could make the case for Shaq > Bird overall as a player (for their careers, peak isn't really debatable). All-time list though, it really depends on what you value as a basketball fan.

I appreciate your comments. To me, I disregard the importance of talking about what someone did with his limitations or his unparalleled physique because they made it up or was slowed with another feature. With Bird, it was his IQ. If Vince Carter had his IQ, he'd be an all-time great too...just like if Bird had VC's athleticism, he'd be even more unstoppable. With a weakness, you cover it up with something else. I don't know if Bird would be as great as he was if he grew up with elite athleticism because he'd focus more on driving and finishing than the other great parts of his game that made him one of the GOATs.

Larry Bird is very impressive, but what he did was win 2 FMVP out of 3 to Shaq's 3 out of 4. Both had stats that are ahead of their competition at their own position. I'm just hard-pressed to see Shaq at around 7-8 and Bird to be like 4-5.