Will Derek Rose Go Down As One of the Worst MVPs Of All Time

[ShaqAttack3234]

LOL, so who was the leader of the Orlando team? You think Russell and Magic are on the same level as DH and Darko? You think its your TV playing a movie trick on you when you can't distinguish that? You think Magic on the current Laker team goes thru what those guys are going thru?

[COLOR="Brown"]"Derrick has been tremendous down the stretch of games. What separates him from the other contenders for MVP is when you look at the Bulls' overall success. His winning attitude has become contagious. He gets better every night because he's so competitive. He stepped up on defense and his team has followed. That's the definition of leadership."[/COLOR]
-- Scottie Pippen on Derrick Rose And apparently at the movies.

Its obvious not every player posses leadership or a winning attitude.
Thanks Sdac

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.

You can't win without offense. Players have to get acclimated to their coach. It doesn't happen magically. There is not one coach on any level of ball that doesn't seeks out a player that will reach the team beyond the obvious level. That player makes it easier for the coach to get the lessons of sacrifice and giving it your all easier. Motivational coaches are a vast minority - there are usually more players that are on teams with that quality. How players adjust to new roles is best done by a player and not a coach.

You can't win without playing both ends, but you can win 60+ games in the regular season by being truly great at one end and pretty mediocre at the other end. Chicago was one example, dominant defensive team, but mediocre offensively. Phoenix was also like that except they were great offensively and mediocre defensively, but also won 60+ twice.

You're right, coaches do look for leadership from the players, but the bottom line is that the players playing with energy is the coaches responsibility first and foremost.

There is no blending whatsoever going on in LA. DH plays his game and Kobe is playing his game. Nash is flexible and Gasol is odd man out. You need a movie screen to tell you that? And they are vets, now Lebron and Wade are not as complimentary and have similar strengths so I can understand a harmony issue which took a whole season long to reconcile.

What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?

Seriously, you think the situation in LA isn't a matter of sacrifice, working together and leadership??? Why did you say Tebow?

The situation in LA has to do with that, but also players who don't fit together and a terrible coach. I brought up Tebow because your use of cliches is bordering on what the Tebow fans were going on about when he was in Denver.

Kobe took a whopping 16 more shots than the next player on his team. Rose took five more than the next player. Rose took 24% of his teams shots and Kobe took 33%. Rose was delivering 3 more assist as well. And his team was really winning and very successful.

Since when is FGA an indication of ball-dominance? That just tells you how many shots you get up, not how you get them. For example, from the '89-'90 season on, Jordan wasn't especially ball-dominant due to the triangle, and Jordan's excellent decision making, but he was still regularly taking more shots than Lebron or Wade ever were despite not being nearly as ball-dominant as them at that time.

Of course Rose was picking up more assists, he was the point guard and Kobe was told by Phil to score that year. And Kobe did at a remarkable rate. Plus, I'm sure Rose's assists drop in the triangle.

Rose was taking over games from November til April. And he was putting constant pressure on teams with his ability to get to the rim. He wasn't guard able and the Bulls dominated the elite.

He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.

[nathanjizzle]

pls stop bumping this poor, illinformed thread.

[Go Getter]

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.



You can't win without playing both ends, but you can win 60+ games in the regular season by being truly great at one end and pretty mediocre at the other end. Chicago was one example, dominant defensive team, but mediocre offensively. Phoenix was also like that except they were great offensively and mediocre defensively, but also won 60+ twice.

You're right, coaches do look for leadership from the players, but the bottom line is that the players playing with energy is the coaches responsibility first and foremost.



What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?



The situation in LA has to do with that, but also players who don't fit together and a terrible coach. I brought up Tebow because your use of cliches is bordering on what the Tebow fans were going on about when he was in Denver.



Since when is FGA an indication of ball-dominance? That just tells you how many shots you get up, not how you get them. For example, from the '89-'90 season on, Jordan wasn't especially ball-dominant due to the triangle, and Jordan's excellent decision making, but he was still regularly taking more shots than Lebron or Wade ever were despite not being nearly as ball-dominant as them at that time.

Of course Rose was picking up more assists, he was the point guard and Kobe was told by Phil to score that year. And Kobe did at a remarkable rate. Plus, I'm sure Rose's assists drop in the triangle.



He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

And about rebounding.....Rose is an excellent rebounder for his position....it just so happens that he has three guys who rebound the hell out of the ball, well four counting Taj, so people that just look at numbers won't see what he brings to the table.


There aren't many guards that are going to bully Rose....and he wins most matchups....well, he did in his MVP year.

[Money 23]

If the Bulls had SOMEONE to create other than Rose, and paired him up with another star and not some journey man like Keith Bogans, then Miami wouldn't have been able to zone up on Rose drive, and LeBron wouldn't have been able to pressure Rose and contest his jumpers on step backs ...

And this whole thread would be completely MOOT. I'd say Dirk's 2007 MVP is the worst MVP I've ever seen, especially given context. At least Rose led his team to the conference finals.

Malone 1997
Nash 2005
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Worst MVP selections I've EVER seen. Barkley in '93 is too, but it was a clear case of voter fatigue for Jordan.

[Pointguard]

I never said they're all on the same level. I said every team has leaders, whether it's a veteran role player or the superstar. The value given is highly subjective, I prefer to look primarily at how they play the game on the court. You pretty much only talk about this type of stuff and either focus on 4th quarters or some irrelevant shit like the Sacramento game. It seems like you're just focusing on what would be shown in some feel-good movie rather than watching what's happening on the court over the course of an 48 minute game.

Name me the other players on that team that were really creative that year? Who was creating their own shot? Who didn't get a boost from Derrick's penetrating? How come teams weren't penetrating? When they did well against three point shooting was it all Bogans? How come teams couldn't run on Chitown? Who maintained a better tempo for their team to thrive in better than Rose/Bogans? What point guard lead all guards (Kobe and Wade too) in points, rebounds and assist category? What point guard dominated the elite at his position? Guess who was third in blocks? Who was the games best penetrator in the game? Who was breaking down more defenses? Who was more clutch? What player on a contender had more offensive weight on them than Rose? Sounds like a pretty good 48 minutes to me.

What exactly does LA assembling a dysfunctional team of stars who don't complement each other and having a bad coach have to do with 2011?

Teams need leadership to adjust to new situations.

He's a great player who had a great season, but nobody is going to convince me he had the impact of a two-way big man like 2011 Dwight. Rose was a great scorer due to his athleticism, ability to create off the dribble and get to the rim and finish either with dunks, acrobatic lay ups or floaters. Solid, but not great shooter. And a good playmaker, but not among the best at his position at that point guard. Neither his decision making or passing were particularly remarkable. Nothing worth mentioning as far as defense and rebounding. He was right in the conversation for best point guard that year because he was a great scorer who was a solid playmaker.

LOL, who was the other point guard? You missed his biggest attribute. When any player gets from the perimeter to the rim its a defensive breakdown - the whole team has to go over how they are going to prevent him from getting to the rim. They go back to the huddle and discuss what went wrong in the team defense practice.

Doubling Howard is easy, you know who is supposed to do it. He was turnover prone, didn't handle doubles well, and wasn't likely to pass. He could only score from limited range. He wasn't remotely close to being Rose offensively in the first quarter and the distance increased as the quarter's progressed. Mentally he's not as sharp and his decision making was obviously weaker. In the end Dwight was limited in how much damage he could do and did do.

Overall his play was superb but the better defensive teams looked forward to a win when they played Orlando and pondered a way to stop Rose and then lost, without exception in the final four months. That's a too big of difference.

[Pointguard]

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

Yeah Rose had to improvise a whole lot. Thibes didn't get into extensive offensive practices until mid January that year. That was a lot to put on Rose but he had confidence in him and Rose was willing.

There aren't many guards that are going to bully Rose....and he wins most matchups....well, he did in his MVP year.

Trust me, this board would have lit up if any pg had gotten the best of Rose and it only happened twice, and then it was too dubious to say he was even really outplayed. But the Rose vs Rondo, Rose vs Deron Williams, Rose vs Paul threads were loaded against Rose. By the end of the year they were obsolete.

Billups who bullied Deron Williams the year before never even attempted to do so with Rose. It was then I realized how strong Rose was. Even Wade who bullies SG didn't try it. And Rose wasn't into the weight room.

[knicksman]

This.

Rose was very good, and yes CONTEXT made him MVP. But he deserved that award in 2011.

LeBron / Wade were out the running because their numbers were identical and the media was infuriated that they cowardly joined forces, and Dwight didn't impact late in games like Rose, nor did he have the record to compete.

ShaqAttack3234 as much as I love him, is a known little guy hater, and big man groupie. Rose was ultimately more impactful than Howard, and it really isn't even close.

are you really sure about this? Chicago still finished first with rose missing most of the games last season

[ShaqAttack3234]

The last part is categorically false.

When the Bulls were clicking and Rose was on he was a perfect floor general. Setting up Korver for threes, drive and dishes with Deng, drop off passes to Boozer and Noah....we just required him to score so much in a sloth like, newly developed scheme by Thibbs....it was a process to get everyone on the same page, and most time when things disnt work we just gave the ball to Rose and let him do his thing.

I never said he wasn't a good playmaker. He wouldn't have been the best point guard that year, or arguably the best without being good. But his passing and decision making were not on the level of Nash, Paul, Kidd, Rondo or even Lebron.

And this whole thread would be completely MOOT. I'd say Dirk's 2007 MVP is the worst MVP I've ever seen, especially given context. At least Rose led his team to the conference finals.

Malone 1997
Nash 2005
Nash 2006
Dirk 2007

Worst MVP selections I've EVER seen. Barkley in '93 is too, but it was a clear case of voter fatigue for Jordan.

I can agree with Malone in '97 deserving a spot on the list, and probably Nash in '06.

Dirk's MVP looks bad considering the terrible playoff series, but based on the regular season, I think he was a good choice. I think Nash would have been as well. Kobe is kind of tough that year. He's my choice for 2006, but now their record was barely above .500. Not his fault due to the injuries, but that's sort of where I draw the line as far as wins.

What's your problem with Nash's MVP in '05? I mean who did it really come down to, him and Shaq? And I already know you didn't think Shaq was deserving anymore by 2005. So who would you choose then?

I can't agree with Barkley being on that list. He played great, and the Suns maintained that record with KJ out a long time. My pick was Hakeem and the best player overall was still Jordan, though.

Name me the other players on that team that were really creative that year? Who was creating their own shot? Who didn't get a boost from Derrick's penetrating? How come teams weren't penetrating? When they did well against three point shooting was it all Bogans? How come teams couldn't run on Chitown? Who maintained a better tempo for their team to thrive in better than Rose/Bogans? What point guard lead all guards (Kobe and Wade too) in points, rebounds and assist? What point guard dominated the elite at his position? Guess who was third in blocks? Who was the games best penetrator in the game? Who was breaking down more defenses? Who was more clutch? What player on a contender had more offensive weight on them than Rose? Sounds like a pretty good 48 minutes to me.

I never said Rose's teammates didn't benefit from him. Although both Deng and Boozer were capable scorers, and better than anyone Dwight had. Though I never claimed Rose had great offensive players around him. It's debatable how important scoring was to their success considering they often seemed better with Taj Gibson than they did with Boozer, though.

I never said Rose wasn't a great player that year. I said that I don't think his all around game or impact was equal to Dwight or Lebron.

Teams need leadership to adjust to new situations.

Yes, but it usually doesn't just come from one guy. in Chicago's case, it was the coach and their star, but also some veterans who and they had quite a few gritty defensive players who were known for playing hard.

LOL, who was the other point guard? You missed his biggest attribute. When any player gets from the perimeter to the rim its a defensive breakdown - the whole team has to go over how they are going to prevent him from getting to the rim. They go back to the huddle and discuss what went wrong in the team defense practice.

I did mention Rose's ability to penetrate and breakdown a defense. The other point guard I thought was debatable with Rose was Chris Paul. Paul didn't have a great season by his standards, but I still think you can make the case.

Doubling Howard is easy, you know who is supposed to do it. He was turnover prone, didn't doubles handle well, and wasn't likely to pass. He could only score from limited range. He wasn't remotely close to being Rose offensively in the first quarter and the distance increased as the quarter's progressed. Mentally he's not as sharp and his decision making was obviously weaker. In the end Dwight was limited in how much damage he could do and did do.

Actually, when Orlando was in trouble was when they didn't double Howard, and that's because none of his teammates created for themselves consistently. Hedo had the ability, but was passive, inconsistent and content to be a role player by that point. Nelson had the ability as well, but was also very inconsistent and not a good decision maker. I do agree that his passing wasn't very good. That's one of the things he actually did better in 2012, though his overall level of play dropped.

I don't agree that the gap between their offense was massive. Dwight gave you a guy who was scoring in the post consistently, an automatic finisher, as good as any big man at running the floor, as well as a guy who gave you 23/14, 59% for the season and 27/15, 63% over January and February.

Overall his play was superb but the better defensive teams looked forward to a win when they played Orlando and pondered a way to stop Rose and then lost, without exception in the final four months. That's a too big of difference.

I don't know what defensive teams were looking forward to. I do know that the strategy to beat them became clear, which was not to double Howard as much. Some teams of course still doubled him. But it became clear that more likely than not, Dwight's teammates weren't going to do a lot of damage without open looks.

[Scholar]

@ anyone arguing Nash didn't deserve those MVPs. The guy took a relatively poor performing team and made it into contenders practically by his lonesome. That deserves merit.