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  1. #1
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    Default Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    With all this talk about Jordan lately and his interview stuff...........let's set the record straight here.

    Hand checking was removed during Jordan's playing time, while he was playing, and was specifically done so to help him. They originally even intended to call it, "The Jordan Rule", but ultimately Stern didn't want to call it that because it might affect the image of his star.

    The no hand check rule was actually brought about because the league wanted to help Jordan while he was playing in the NBA.

    It's almost like no one even realizes this anymore.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Yeah... no. If by Jordan you meant Kobe, then yeah, you're definitely right:

    [INDENT]From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    I'm pretty sure they lightened up on hand checking when Jordan was retired

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Real hand-checking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of hand-check fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't hand-check in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually hand-check? No, but the real hand-check (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that hand-checking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).




    Published: March 28, 1993
    The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.

    It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.
    Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
    Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

    Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If hand-checking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era.

    Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

    Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no hand-checking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?

    Hand-checking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It does make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through hand-checking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak ). Most of the hand-checking was done in the back court anyways.

    For a shooting guard, small forward and especially for big men, illegal defense rules being taken out and also zone being put in is a bigger problem. Help defense as a result in the 00s has been better than ever before, and it's also never been harder to play out of the post.

    Now let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tons and tons of VHS tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check". You could use your forearm to slow down a defender and that's it.

    Also this supposedly "old school rough and tough basketball" is still played in the Euro league with all the hand checking rules + zone defenses.

    And one thing is for sure; A foul is still a foul, a defender is only allowed to use his forearm to slow down attacking player, that's it. It's not like defenders are allowed to push, restrain or chop the hands and fingers of their opponents. That's complete bull shit.

    Hilarious that some people will look at a few cherry picked/selective clips on youtube and then come to the conclusion that the league was no blood, no foul in the 80s and 90s.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    People act as if this hand-check was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand-check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

    It's funny because if your hand-check in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The hand-check was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honest I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players bitched and flopped less often though) back then as now. People making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of cherry picked YouTube clips and come to conclusions. I doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.


    And lets completely ignore the rules that favored isolation ball and significantly worse team defense than what we have now. From the early 80s when they started to crack down on and clarified the following rules:

    [QUOTE]a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by DonDadda59
    .........
    I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in '79:

    [QUOTE]1978-79
    Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by DonDadda59
    Yeah... no. If by Jordan you meant Kobe, then yeah, you're definitely right:

    From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:

    "So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

    At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."


    Cuban got his wish and the already stringent anti-contact rules for perimeter play became even more strict. The unintended backlash ended up blowing up in his face:

    [COLOR="Red"]"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.[/COLOR]

    Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span

    Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."

    -BallerBlogger.com, article: 'Cuban Helped Eliminate Handchecking'

    So Kobe wetting the bed against the Pistons in '04 led to this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

    And that shit really blew up in Cuban's face in the finals. The legend of D-Whistle was born
    Complete bullshit. Hand checking was penalized during the time Jordan was playing in the league.
    Last edited by Euroleague; 02-16-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by DonDadda59
    Yeah... no. If by Jordan you meant Kobe, then yeah, you're definitely right:

    From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It’s Not Broke, Doesn’t Mean It’s Optimal. Even in the NBA';Feb 4th 2009:

    "So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

    At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often."


    Cuban got his wish and the already stringent anti-contact rules for perimeter play became even more strict. The unintended backlash ended up blowing up in his face:

    [COLOR="Red"]"The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.[/COLOR]

    Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span

    Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged."

    -BallerBlogger.com, article: 'Cuban Helped Eliminate Handchecking'

    So Kobe wetting the bed against the Pistons in '04 led to this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y

    And that shit really blew up in Cuban's face in the finals. The legend of D-Whistle was born
    Euroleague completely abused, molested & raped beyond recognition.

    this is how you end a retarded thread for good.

    1999 Lock-out & post-MJ era already started working on defensive rules change in NBA when team like 1999 SAS had a chance of winning.

    NBA already strarted getting SOFT since 2000 post lock-out. '90s teams like knicks, bulls, pacers, Heat, pistons that were built on solid defense were "PHASED OUT"

    a peak prime 6'0 IVerson took full advantage of this in 2001 as he became a scoring champ & MVP & NBA Finalist that year with weak supporting cast.

    full effect of eliminating PHYSICAL-D were put in post-2004 LAL finals loss.

    2004 Pistons were still the relic of the '90s & probably be the last team to win it all on defensive powers alone.
    Last edited by gengiskhan; 02-16-2013 at 03:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Jordan played when it was legal for teams to play defense in the paint. That rule change might be more significant than the hand check. Take a snap shot of any game today and you will see the paint completely empty. In the 90s the paint was packed like sardines and much harder to get to the rim. Phil and many others close to micheal have said MJ with the current rules would easily score 40 a night for a whole season.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by Ne 1
    I wish these clowns would actually watch games from their "golden era" and realize how common 70+ FTA games were, how so many flagrant fouls were "soft" in the 90s due to the bad boys era, and realize how many touch fouls were called amongst other things. The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical hand-checking in '79:



    In the 80s, I've seen hand-checking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to hand-check etc. SI published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Hand-checking was still allowed in the back court however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in 1994.


    The same bull shit complaints people have about the league now, people had back in the 80s/90s. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). I'll gladly upload video of couple of them talking about this because I think I saved it somewhere. And the same "hand-checking" complaints were going on in 1993, in fact here's an NY Times article:

    Published: March 28, 1993


    Hubie Brown on hand-checking (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23m25FXgK-Y

    Technically the real handcheck was made illegal in 1980 (and I have tons of clips of commentators pointing this out, making a compilation actually...Tommy Heinsohn getting pissed whenever someone got away with a handcheck on Bird or something), but you got away with it then, just like you get away with it now.

    You could check but you could never impede a player's progress like you could before 1980. So, since it was legal in the 70s, I'm sure lot of you "handcheck = 90s together era" clowns will agree that 70s = GOAT defense because it was more physical. Wait...that's exactly what players from the 70s used to say, how you couldn't defend MJ with the no touch rules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6sWXHLbZsU&#t=4m

    But it doesn't take much thinking to realize that 90s defense > 70s defense because the players overall are much quicker, cover the floor better, better team defense, the game is more half court oriented so less easy shots. Just like it doesn't take much to realize that 00s defense > early 90s and 80s for those same exact reasons.
    So I guess all these guys are full of shit

    About Alvin Robertson:

    Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

    Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

    Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

    One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
    "I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

    Why is Kenny Smith talking about handchecking if it was already gone?

    NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

    Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

    Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

    Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by gengiskhan
    Euroleague completely abused, molested & raped beyond recognition.

    this is how you end a retarded thread for good.

    1999 Lock-out & post-MJ era already started working on defensive rules change in NBA when team like 1999 SAS had a chance of winning.

    NBA already strarted getting SOFT since 2000 post lock-out. '90s teams like knicks, bulls, pacers, Heat, pistons that were built on solid defense were "PHASED OUT"

    a peak prime 6'0 IVerson took full advantage of this in 2001 as he became a scoring champ & MVP & NBA Finalist that year with weak supporting cast.

    full effect of eliminating PHYSICAL-D were put in post-2004 LAL finals loss.

    2004 Pistons were still the relic of the '90s & probably be the last team to win it all on defensive powers alone.
    You are an idiot. Hand checking was already penalized during Jordan's prime.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by Calabis
    So I guess all these guys are full of shit

    About Alvin Robertson:

    Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

    Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

    Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

    One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
    "I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

    Why is Kenny Smith talking about handchecking if it was already gone?

    NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

    Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

    Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1980??

    Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was — bam! — you stop him.

    Why is Doug Collins talking about handchecking after 2004 rule changes?

    Joe Johnson from the Atlanta Hawks was asked about the handchecking rule during the summer of 2010: "It benefits me," said Joe Johnson, one of three players (Mike Bibby and Jamal Crawford are the others) on the Hawks' roster who have averaged 20 or more points in a season. "It definitely changes the game because it gives every guy that extra step. "If we could hand check now, the game would be totally different," Johnson said. "If they couldn't hand check back in the day, there are some guys that would have been even better than they were. It would have been nuts for some of the big-time scorers and perimeter players from the 1980s and 1990s. Can you imagine what [Michael] Jordan would have done in a league where you couldn't hand check."

    Why is a current player referring to handchecking in the 80's and 90's, why does he assume the game would be a lot different?

    "The game has changed big-time,” said Dallas point guard Jason Kidd . "When I came in you could hand check and hold a little bit. You could definitely be more physical with the ball-handlers.

    Why is Jason Kidd talking about handchecking??

    "The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

    For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

    Why is Doc Rivers talking about handchecking in 94, if it was banned in 1980??
    It's all part of NBA gimmick marketing. The hand checking was a foul long before that. Anyone that watched NBA then knows this.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by Calabis
    ........

    Published: March 28, 1993
    The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.

    It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by Euroleague
    It's all part of NBA gimmick marketing. The hand checking was a foul long before that. Anyone that watched NBA then knows this.

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    Default Re: Hand Checking Was Removed To Help Jordan During The Time He Played

    Quote Originally Posted by gengiskhan
    NBA already strarted getting SOFT since 2000 post lock-out. '90s teams like knicks, bulls, pacers, Heat, pistons that were built on solid defense were "PHASED OUT"
    ^Yeah, basically.

    "The most significant change in recent years are frequently referred to as the "hand-check rules," but they are not rule changes at all. Instead, based on the advice of a special 2001 committee led by then-Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, the league ended the boring, grind-it-out defensive style of the Pat Riley Knicks by instructing referees to more tightly enforce existing rules against impeding the progress of offensive players, especially with hand-checking. Since then, any contact that affects an offensive player's speed, rhythm, balance or quickness is a foul -- a change that has goosed up the league's offensive numbers; inspiring some of the greatest offenses in NBA history (including this year's Spurs and the Phoenix Suns of a few years ago); and emboldening rim-attacking players like Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Dwyane Wade and Russell Westbrook."

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...anges-to-rules

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