Dirk is better than KG.

[Djahjaga]

Completely different players.

Therefore we cannot make judgements about them or debate their overall impact on a basketball game.

[Segatti]

Therefore we cannot make judgements about them or debate their overall impact on a basketball game.

Therefore nothing, don't distort what I said

[ballup]

Watching this Laker game made me realize that Dirk has been a great scorer and go to in the league. Sure he can be a defensive liability, but overall he's been a superior player than Garnett. The Garnett vs Duncan debate is silly, mainly because Duncan has been markedly better. But I have to give the nod to Dirk on this matchup

So what you saying is defense doesn't matter. Ok.

[Djahjaga]

Therefore nothing, don't distort what I said

So what were you saying? You offered nothing to the discourse. It definitely seemed like you argument was that they can't be compared because they're so different.

[Just2McFly]

Dirk clearly had better teams for most of his career. However, for most of his runs, those teams were a) not clear championship material, and b) did Dirk's teammates not step up for a lot of his runs. Terry is a great example for that. He had a history of making a disappearing act in the years prior to 2011.

Why are KG fans so sensitive? I'm not even railing on Garnett, just putting things into focus.

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.

[creepingdeath]

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.

Who disputed that for KG's 2001-2007 years?

[red1]

dirk has really come into his own these past few seasons but I would still take kg

[DMAVS41]

There is fundamental difference between having teammates who do not step up, and having to carry a cast of misfits the whole way.

There is no sensitivity, and you do not understand the origin of my argument. I'm making the claim that in terms of carrying, KG has had to do way more than Dirk ever has. Which I cannot see anyone debating this.

Of course KG played with much less on the twolves most years.

But the results show that. It's not like they had similar success. Dirk led teams won 50 or more games like 11 straight years...made the wcf 3 times. finals twice. and a title. that kind of success is something KG never touched as the leader of a team.

now, before you say anything. i'm not knocking KG for that. he was in a terrible position. i totally agree that KG had much less help. however, again, it's not like the level of success is anywhere remotely even.

the problem with any of these debates is that people just assume two basic things that are actually dead wrong:

1. KG can't carry a team offensively and isn't good in crunch time. it is true that he's not on the Dirk level in that regard, but he's actually a much better crunch time player and overall offensive force than people give him credit for.

2. Dirk isn't only a shooter/scorer. Just not true. Dirk is actually one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time. Since about the 04 season...his defense has not been a liability at all aside from extenuating circumstances that every player faces in terms of matchups. People forget that Dirk played Nellie ball until 05...defense wasn't even coache or asked of him. He played his role on those teams. There are also things that Dirk brings to the table that people seem to ignore...even though they might be his most valuable assets. Having a 7 footer that can shoot the ball from 3 as well as he does just causes so many matchup problems. Put a big on him and he'll blow by or stretch the floor...put a smaller player on him and he'll post him up and draw doubles. Run high screen and rolls and the help man literally can't hedge because of Dirk's range at the three point line...I could go on.


The ultimate point of all of these endless debates is that playing the game of basketball is more of an art than a science...and while stats are really important as is overall play, they don't tell the whole story.

If defense was as important as people think it is here...and it is really important, then guys like Dirk and Nash and Magic and a whole host of other players just wouldn't have done what they did.

And I'll say it again. The notion that Dirk is a terrible defender has not been true for almost a decade now.

[DMAVS41]

dirk has really come into his own these past few seasons but I would still take kg

I don't mean to jump on you, but it's comments like these that do Dirk's career a huge disservice.

Dirk was destroying teams in the playoffs all the way back to 02 (KG's wolves)...certainly in 03 (wcf)...and in 06 the Dirk led Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in 3 years of playoffs.

[Djahjaga]

Of course KG played with much less on the twolves most years.

But the results show that. It's not like they had similar success. Dirk led teams won 50 or more games like 11 straight years...made the wcf 3 times. finals twice. and a title. that kind of success is something KG never touched as the leader of a team.

now, before you say anything. i'm not knocking KG for that. he was in a terrible position. i totally agree that KG had much less help. however, again, it's not like the level of success is anywhere remotely even.

the problem with any of these debates is that people just assume two basic things that are actually dead wrong:

1. KG can't carry a team offensively and isn't good in crunch time. it is true that he's not on the Dirk level in that regard, but he's actually a much better crunch time player and overall offensive force than people give him credit for.

2. Dirk isn't only a shooter/scorer. Just not true. Dirk is actually one of the best defensive rebounding power forwards of all time. Since about the 04 season...his defense has not been a liability at all aside from extenuating circumstances that every player faces in terms of matchups. People forget that Dirk played Nellie ball until 05...defense wasn't even coache or asked of him. He played his role on those teams. There are also things that Dirk brings to the table that people seem to ignore...even though they might be his most valuable assets. Having a 7 footer that can shoot the ball from 3 as well as he does just causes so many matchup problems. Put a big on him and he'll blow by or stretch the floor...put a smaller player on him and he'll post him up and draw doubles. Run high screen and rolls and the help man literally can't hedge because of Dirk's range at the three point line...I could go on.


The ultimate point of all of these endless debates is that playing the game of basketball is more of an art than a science...and while stats are really important as is overall play, they don't tell the whole story.

If defense was as important as people think it is here...and it is really important, then guys like Dirk and Nash and Magic and a whole host of other players just wouldn't have done what they did.

And I'll say it again. The notion that Dirk is a terrible defender has not been true for almost a decade now.

Not to simplify everything you just said, but would you agree with this statement:

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

The gaps may be the same but the actual weight of the gaps is not the same. You can replace what KG brought defensively a lot easier than you can replace with what Dirk brings on offense.

[DMAVS41]

Not to simplify everything you just said, but would you agree with this statement:

The gap between KG's offense and Dirk's offense is smaller than the gap between KG's defense and Dirk's defense.



I think that much is at least very obvious and not debatable.

Yes, but this is my point. I've talked about this before. If you were grading them scientifically it would be something like this.

KG is a 10 on defense/rebounding...Dirk is a 5

KG is a 8 on offense....Dirk is a 9 or 9.5

You'd get 18 vs 14.5

I'm sorry, but if anyone actually thinks KG is 20% better than Dirk...you are just objectively nuts.

Let's take a different example. What about Nash vs KG. Nash would essentially be a 1 or 2 (if we are being kind) on defense. He's literally one of the worst defensive players ever. So you are looking at a 11 or 12 if you award nash a 10 on offense..which i don't think he deserves...but you get my point.

How about Magic Johnson? Is Gary Payton better than him? I could go on and on. There are certain things that players bring to the table that defy simplistic breakdowns and measurements.

And my argument would be that Dirk has those things and that is what makes a debate that should be one sided on paper....but in reality it's a tough call.

[Halipender]

dirk is nowhere the defender KG is

[red1]

I don't mean to jump on you, but it's comments like these that do Dirk's career a huge disservice.

Dirk was destroying teams in the playoffs all the way back to 02 (KG's wolves)...certainly in 03 (wcf)...and in 06 the Dirk led Mavs were the only team to beat the Spurs in 3 years of playoffs.

Despite all of that it is perfectly fair to say that he only recently shed the soft label once and for all after winning the chip two seasons ago. Thats just the way sports work. Dirk is an unconventional big, if he never won that fmvp he never wouldve got the respect he gets now since people would write him off for not defending the way the typical star big does. Btw 2011 dirk is the best version of dirk.

[spacebump]

dirk is nowhere the defender KG is

and KG isn't even on the same planet as Dirk when it comes to offense.
People like to talk about how KG was surrounded by crap but Dirk took Dampier to the Finals.

Dirk is better. He won a title as the man and didn't need excuses. KG will never win Finals MVP.