Dirk is better than KG.

[Pointguard]

This is just priceless. The burden of those other guys is higher than Dirk's? They had so much more help.

Durant's team last year was better, quite easily, than any team Dirk has ever played on.

westbrook, harden, sefolosha, collison, perkins, ibaka...i mean...my god.

somehow it's harder for Lebron to win with Wade/Bosh and other solid veterans than it is for Dirk to win with Terry and Chandler.

Kobe? Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Fisher...the GOAT coach?

This is my problem. If you put any of the guys you mention on a team with similar help to the 11 Mavs...you'd be sitting here saying they didn't have enough help.

It is mind boggling to me.

The only player that deserves to have the argument made that he could win with less is Duncan. Guys like Kobe, Lebron, KG, Shaq, Durant (if he wins one) will have needed absolutely great help and great coaching.

I called this even before the Mavs won. I said that everyone's notions about Dirk were so deeply entrenched that even if he led a team of misfits that were shit without him as huge underdogs to the title while playing great...somehow people would make it about everyone but Dirk

And god damn was I right...

I'm not talking about outside help, understand me. The personal tax, isn't what Tim Duncan and Lebron are taxed despite them looking like they had better teams in Tim's and Lebron's case.

Below is a minium of Conferernce finals:

KG's tax for going to the WCF was 24/15/5/1/2 great defense - playing 3 posititions and defensive anchor and still get eliminated Shaq/Kobe. Be the top scorer, rebounder, assist man, block man, and best man on man defender and he couldn't cut back on anything. And they still lose.

Tim Duncan's tax 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and defensive anchor, while leading his team in every category but steals. and he couldn't cut back on anything.

Lebron 30/10/6/2 to win it all, best defender, leads all three major categories. Play four positions to win it all.

Wade 28/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, penetrator to win it all. Had one of the best finals performace ever to win it all. 35/8/4/3 with 1 block to defeat Dallas.

Kobe 30/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, lost to Celtics.

Durant, in his three playoff years, has averaged what it took for Dirk to win the championship 28/8/4

Dirk's tax was bigger in '06 so we'll use that 27/12/3. One of the worst starting defenders in the starting line-up. Lead his team in rebounding. They lose in the finals to Wade.

And the regular season is way more lopsided against Dirk.

The tax is significantly less on Dirk in both seasons. So what is the reason that his team can succeed while demanding less of him? Could it be that his team compensates for what he lacks to a bigger degree? The misfits of compensation were seemingly greater in every example and throughout Dirk's career. I know you will avoid the question.

[Pointguard]

Figure I will repost this since you negged me on it and used your other account Kenny817 to threaten me with it. What's foul is that you started with the insults.

Originally Posted by creepingdeath:

Yeah, because the level of defense Marion and Kidd were playing is clearly a dichotomy, not a continuum that allows for more than either GOAT or bust. Also, a championship is never monocausal, so their defensive prowess of course correlates with the team's success, but more factors go into the equation. How can you be so dense?

Wow, that was a complete joke. Dichotomy, continuum, monocausal, prowess, correlates. Who do you think you are fooling??? Bwhaaaahahaaha. Which one is it clown? Good defense by Kidd/Marion, star power just missing or both. I didn't ask you for your third grade vocabulary test. Simple question. Really was that circle of nothingness necessary?

[magnax1]

KG does have it as well. Who is refuting that? I'm just saying Dirk has it in a way that is escaping you clearly.

Yeah, I get that, but the point is that KG has a large gap in impact everywhere but scoring (not even offense as a whole, just scoring) but you somehow come to the conclusion that Dirk is his equal, usually saying something like "Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false. I'm just trying to see how you could come to a logical conclusion that Dirk is as good, and there really isn't one. There isn't a gap anywhere between Dirk's and KG's offense that is big enough to make up the huge advantages KG has elsewhere. It's just not logical. You can try and make up some magical advantage Dirk has in intangibles, but that isn't there. Look, I like Dirk, but reality is that yes, he is mostly a scorer. He is not all that different then Melo. Smarter, yeah, and has a better post game which is nice if you want to have an offense run around him, but it's not like he's in a different tier as a scorer. You're comparing a 25-30 ppg 10 rpg guy to a 20-25 ppg scorer, top 10 all time defender, one of the best rebounders at his position ever, and one of the best passers at his position ever. To come to the conclusion different than KG is better is just silly.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Call me when you start hating on KG for team hopping for rings like you do to LeBron.

I'm on the Dirk side, but Kevin Garnett 5 is a good poster. I don't see him hate in Lebron at all.

[creepingdeath]

Figure I will repost this since you negged me on it and used your other account Kenny817 to threaten me with it. What's foul is that you started with the insults.

You're reposting your selfownage? Okay, suit yourself.
However, I don't use sockpuppet accounts, and I signed my neg, moron.

[Clifton]

"Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false.

What?

[DMAVS41]

I'm not talking about outside help, understand me. The personal tax, isn't what Tim Duncan and Lebron are taxed despite them looking like they had better teams in Tim's and Lebron's case.

Below is a minium of Conferernce finals:

KG's tax for going to the WCF was 24/15/5/1/2 great defense - playing 3 posititions and defensive anchor and still get eliminated Shaq/Kobe. Be the top scorer, rebounder, assist man, block man, and best man on man defender and he couldn't cut back on anything. And they still lose.

Tim Duncan's tax 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and defensive anchor, while leading his team in every category but steals. and he couldn't cut back on anything.

Lebron 30/10/6/2 to win it all, best defender, leads all three major categories. Play four positions to win it all.

Wade 28/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, penetrator to win it all. Had one of the best finals performace ever to win it all. 35/8/4/3 with 1 block to defeat Dallas.

Kobe 30/6/6/2 best perimeter defender, assistman, lost to Celtics.

Durant, in his three playoff years, has averaged what it took for Dirk to win the championship 28/8/4

Dirk's tax was bigger in '06 so we'll use that 27/12/3. One of the worst starting defenders in the starting line-up. Lead his team in rebounding. They lose in the finals to Wade.

And the regular season is way more lopsided against Dirk.

The tax is significantly less on Dirk in both seasons. So what is the reason that his team can succeed while demanding less of him? Could it be that his team compensates for what he lacks to a bigger degree? The misfits of compensation were seemingly greater in every example and throughout Dirk's career. I know you will avoid the question.

Whether or not a player is physically taxed more is not an indication of their overall impact.

Avoid what question? Objectively all the guys you listed simply had better teams other than KG and Duncan. And when they didn't...they didn't win.

Could it be that all of the other guys need teammates to compensate for issues as well? Like Paul Pierce outdueling Lebron in a game 7? Guess what...less guys in the league can do that than average 9/8 and play quality defense at center like Chandler did.

Your breakdown above is great providing the gap between us on this issue.

Your point would be great if Dirk led teams with clearly less help in terms of players and coaching weren't so successful. How did Dirk get to the finals in 06? How did he lead them to 67 wins the next year...how did they win it all? He did all of that with far below average supporting casts based on nba history.

And the nail in your coffin is that you claim Dirk needs so much help defensively. Well...the Mavs had one quality center in the Dirk era...Chandler. That was it. So how did they win so consistently without him? I agree that was what the Mavs needed to win it, but what about all those other years in which our centers were the jokes of damp/diop/lafrentz/najera..etc?

The idea that Kobe's help of gasol/odom/bynum/fisher/artest...coached by phil jackson is somehow more taxing for kobe to play with is absurd.

And the numbers support this. The Mavs almost never won...especially in the playoffs if Dirk had an off game. If Kobe did...his win percentage was much higher. Why? Because he clearly and objectively had more help.

People like you want every NBA player to fit into a little box where everything can be broken down in a very simplistic way. And the only way it works is for you to ignore the facts....simply that Dirk led teams...comprised of different players and coaches and styles were at 50 wins for 11 straight years.

[DMAVS41]

Yeah, I get that, but the point is that KG has a large gap in impact everywhere but scoring (not even offense as a whole, just scoring) but you somehow come to the conclusion that Dirk is his equal, usually saying something like "Offense is more important than defense" which is mathematically just false. I'm just trying to see how you could come to a logical conclusion that Dirk is as good, and there really isn't one. There isn't a gap anywhere between Dirk's and KG's offense that is big enough to make up the huge advantages KG has elsewhere. It's just not logical. You can try and make up some magical advantage Dirk has in intangibles, but that isn't there. Look, I like Dirk, but reality is that yes, he is mostly a scorer. He is not all that different then Melo. Smarter, yeah, and has a better post game which is nice if you want to have an offense run around him, but it's not like he's in a different tier as a scorer. You're comparing a 25-30 ppg 10 rpg guy to a 20-25 ppg scorer, top 10 all time defender, one of the best rebounders at his position ever, and one of the best passers at his position ever. To come to the conclusion different than KG is better is just silly.

We just obviously see the game differently. And you prove my point with the Melo crap. If you can't see the huge difference in a guy like Melo and Dirk and what they do...I give up.

It's about how unique Dirk is and what he does to defenses. You can't sit here and compare him to Melo and talk about ppg and Dirk being a little smarter and better in the post. It's so much more than that. And again..shocking...the evidence is there to support this.

And of course we haven't even brought up the 02 series. Not sure if you watched it or were old enough, but there was no doubt...absolutely no doubt who the best player in that series was. And this was well before Dirk reached even his prime.

[ProfessorMurder]

And of course we haven't even brought up the 02 series. Not sure if you watched it or were old enough, but there was no doubt...absolutely no doubt who the best player in that series was. And this was well before Dirk reached even his prime.

Nash/Finley/Dirk/Van Exel/LaFrentz with homecourt vs. Billups/KG/Szczerbiak

[DMAVS41]

Nash/Finley/Dirk/Van Exel/LaFrentz with homecourt vs. Billups/KG/Szczerbiak

It's not about the Mavs winning...it was about Dirk clearly being the best player on the floor. Which he was. LOL at listing Lafrentz like he's anything...might as well list nesterovich

[bdreason]

I'll take KG. Defensive anchor and he can get you 20/10.

[ProfessorMurder]

It's not about the Mavs winning...it was about Dirk clearly being the best player on the floor. Which he was. LOL at listing Lafrentz like he's anything...might as well list nesterovich

Big deal. He was the better player in 3 games, with homecourt, with a better team.

LaFrentz averaged 10/7/2 blocks in that series, which would make him better than Nesterovic.

[Brunch@Five]

Dirk's offense is underrated. He's on close to Nash and Magic in the regard that he and only he makes their system work. Without Dirk running the pick/roll/pop with whoever, Dallas' offense crumbles. He is similar to Karl Malone in that regard, only that he didn't need a PG of John Stockton's caliber to get the ball.
KG might be a good screen setter, and has a good mid-range game, but he would not be as effective as Dirk playing this kind of ball.

Also, did someone really say that Dirk didn't carry his team? What then is scoring 48 and 40 against OKC in the WCF '11 to outduel Durant? What was putting up 37/15 against the Spurs in game 7 '06 to outduel Duncan? His 50 point game against Suns that same year? What Dirk did time after time in the playoffs is the definition of carrying a team.

[spacebump]

One thing KG is better at than Dirk is being a punk and picking fights with guys smaller than him.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Dirk's offense is underrated. He's on close to Nash and Magic in the regard that he and only he makes their system work. Without Dirk running the pick/roll/pop with whoever, Dallas' offense crumbles. He is similar to Karl Malone in that regard, only that he didn't need a PG of John Stockton's caliber to get the ball.
KG might be a good screen setter, and has a good mid-range game, but he would not be as effective as Dirk playing this kind of ball.

Also, did someone really say that Dirk didn't carry his team? What then is scoring 48 and 40 against OKC in the WCF '11 to outduel Durant? What was putting up 37/15 against the Spurs in game 7 '06 to outduel Duncan? His 50 point game against Suns that same year? What Dirk did time after time in the playoffs is the definition of carrying a team.

You know your stuff.