Is it safe to say Lebron is better than Magic Johnson or Larry Bird?

[inclinerator]

for all those saying players have to fit lebron, give lebron a real coach and see how good he'll really become

[Kblaze8855]

Interesting you mention "will to win". Quite a cliche, especially when mentioning Larry Bird who said in his first year that he most likely wouldn't want to be in the league after 5 or 6 years. Obviously things changed, but I think its conjecture when mentioning things like "will to win" or "love of the game", since you don't really know how much a player wants to win, or how he shows such emotion. Everyone reacts and handles things differently.

How long you desire to play and your will to win everything you do play are not the same thing. And yes its cliche....so is "Defense wins championships". Doesnt mean it doesnt.

Not being able to quantify will to win doesnt mean some dont have more of it than others. You tell me Kobe, Bird, Jordan, and Bill Russell didnt want to win and take the steps needed to do so more than say.....Vince Carter, Eddy Curry, Jamal Magloire, and Elvin Hayes....I just dont believe you are serious. There are guys like Magloire who take 3 moths off for a finger injury while some like Allen Iverson rip off the cast against doctors orders and play with a broken knuckle. There are people like Elvin Hayes who ask out of a game 7 when they got behind and didnt want to come back...and there are people like Larry Bird who snap their fingers back into place during a timeout refusing to leave the game. Some will sit out playoff games with bullshit injures...some like Bill Russell go play on a broken ankle(foolish as it may have been).

Some laugh when getting blown out in a big game....some fight to the last and drag their teammates effort up to match their own if only out of shame.

I cant measure it...but it exists. We all know it exists. We all have played pickup ball. some guys are having fun...they wanna win...but they arent gonna let the game decide their mood. Some guys are pissed off all week over a loss and wont quit till the game is literally over.

Cant measure it. We all know its there though.

[Kingwillball]

I love how you call other people biased, while you're sporting a Lebron avatar & username and then present an argument that's based soley on opinion without a single fact.

You just regurgitate the most obvious shit that anybody could say "magic & bird had special gifts" does that mean?

If you've actually seen those 2 play like you say, I feel like you would have presented a better argument for them besides spitting out a bunch of vague basketball cliches

Dude I have been Watching Bball since the 80's. The Grifts I was referring to is passing, Making Winning Plays being team leaders ect. Lebron can score when he wants to better than Either While Magic was Better at Running an Offense and Bird was a Dead eye outside shooter. Lebron can do a little of all those things. Watch a LEbron HIghlight Film on YOu tube and I still Shake my HEad at some of the Plays he Made over the years we have just either become Used to it or alot of people ON Ish were Not watching his as closely a few years ago. The Dunks the speed the Passing, the Strength, the Playmaking the scoring binges its all there and not many can or have put together a highlight package like Lebron and to Think he may just be Halfway done with his career. Truly a once in a lifetime type talent.

[Kingwillball]

Scoring
LeBron - 3
Bird - 2
Magic - 1

Passing
Magic - 3
LeBron/Bird - 1.5 (although LeBron is better imo, i'll leave my bias out)

Rebounding
Bird - 3
LeBron/Magic - 1.5

Defense
LeBron - 3
Bird - 2
Magic - 1

Point totals

LeBron - 9
Bird - 8.5
Magic - 6.5

I'm not going to do some opinionated ranking system that is completely subjective like things that can't accurately be measured by stats like play making ability, or will to win.

Simple ranking, simple result with no bias on my part.

good Post cant say I disagree with anything. The Thing is Rebounding Lebron COULD be a beast but sometimes doesnt want to put the effort in on the boards.That is why come Playoff time he Averages 10 Plus cause he is doing whatever he has to and putting in the extra effort.

[Rysio]

not even better than adrian dantley. check the stats

[RoundMoundOfReb]

not even better than adrian dantley. check the stats

Even if we don't adjust for pace/era or take into account defense Lebron's stats are better...

[tazb]

He's better than Larry already, will pass Magic soon.

[Champ]

@MarkMadsen.... you didnt seem to comprehend what i was talking about, i am gona try be more thorough.

What Lebron has at his advantage offensively compared to Bird:

*Ballhandling
*Athleticism (which he uses for the defensive side aswell)
*Open-court/Full-court game
*Just simply putting the ball in the hole more and more efficiently.
*Running the offense for his teammates, is a better assist man.
*Can play basically all positions & roles offensively.

What Bird has at his advantage offensively compared to Lebron:

*Shooting
*Post game
*This above made him i think a better overall half-court offensive scorer.

Arguable for both:
*Vision & Passing Ability, in which its a mute point according to me, as they possess probably the best combination of passing skills & vision ive seen from any non-PGs.
*Intangibles & IQ.

What Lebron has at his advantage defensively:

*EVERYTHING

What Bird has at his advantage defensively:

*NOTHING

This doesnt mean Bird was a bad defender, but that he has no advantage of Lebron there....

One other thing which you could say Bird was better at is rebounding as he produced 2.8 more rpg over his career.... but from watching them you will quickly figure it had to do more with tendencies/habits, Bird would attack the defensive boards more often, Lebron would leak out early on the open court instead more often... Bird would attack the offensive boards more often, Lebron would instead more often run back early to stop the opposing leak-out/open-court/fastbreak opportunity..... Birds defensive ability itself was actually not any greater than Lebrons (or Magics)..... its like saying Lebron is a better passer than Bird because Lebron produces more assists.... understand? Doesnt completely work that way...

When push comes to shove Lebron with short words is simply a more overall productive, efficient and more versatile talent at this stage in his career.... its very difficult to fight this... and both Magic & Bird with their own words acknowledged this....


Lebron today i think is also more dominant than Magic & Bird were.... its because Magic & Bird were flip-flopping over that honor, that "best player" honor, one year its Magic, one year its Bird, one year its somebody completely else (Moses 1983), one year its Magic, Bird, Magic, Bird, over and over, then this guy Michael Jordan came into the picture..... Lebron has no rival/rivals like that, he is dominating it all, he is clearly the best player, its Lebrons basketball world and we are living in it...

I think the categories you list here are somewhat arbitrary and do not paint a complete picture. The language you choose largely dictates this.

For instance, there were a lot of aspects of offensive basketball you had omitted that I, in turn, could list that would favor Bird.

There are some defensive elements, as well.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Magic maybe, Bird no.

Bird was clearly a better overall player than Magic, I don't know who goes against this, even Magic admits it. Magic won most of his MVP's when Bird was already a shell also, and the Celtics couldn't compete, before that, except for '87, Bird was always above on MVP voting. Plus Larry was the main man from the start, Magic had a top 3 player close to his prime when he got there.

People seem to forget about competition though, LeBron's competition can't hold a candle to what Bird or Magic went up against, as far as top players and teams.
Plus the 80's had the best SF's in history and the 80's East was just one of goat conferences, as to the East that LeBron played in has mostly been really, really weak.
Larry had a better peak, and did more or the same against much better competition, especially as far as top players and teams.

[Money 23]

Is it safe to say LeBron is now a better catch and shoot player than Kobe? I still think Kobe's a better shooter off the dribble.

[ILLsmak]

We should just compare LeBron to who he is playing against now. I think LeBron is better than the rest of the players in the NBA right now. Why isn't that enough? I mean, I can understand because he is seemingly so far ahead that people want to compare him to other players, but the truth is... those sort of comparisons aren't made until careers are over and they can compare accolades.

In terms of fantasy land... no, I'm taking Bird and Magic. It doesn't matter who is the better all around player. It's who gets the best results. Those guys are (arguably) top 5 all time players. They played in the greatest era for bball and dominated. It's hard to put anyone over them.

-Smak

[Clifton]

Can someone please explain how Bird is better than Lebron? What exactly makes Bird a better player? Is he a better scorer? No. Better ball handler? No. Better passer? Not really. Better defender? No. More versatile? No. More athletic? No. Better shooter? Maybe, but not by much ( especially with Lebron shooting over 50% from the field since like 2008). Better rebounder? Sure, but not by much.

Better scorer against good defenses. Benefits less from breakaways and defensive collapses, but is able to get a bucket against anyone any time. The only other guy who I've watched who can do that, to that extent, is MJ.

And MJ pointed out that Lebron is stoppable by a great team defense. His average jumpshooting means he has to beat you with other players. Bird could beat you with other players but he didn't have to so much.

And this topic is kind of alarming. We have still never seen Lebron put up a very good whole playoff series against a good defense. He beat Celtic and Thunder teams that were okay - and barely - but he's never been challenged the way Bird was on a regular basis (Pistons, Lakers, others).

[Micku]

Better scorer against good defenses. Benefits less from breakaways and defensive collapses, but is able to get a bucket against anyone any time. The only other guy who I've watched who can do that, to that extent, is MJ.

And MJ pointed out that Lebron is stoppable by a great team defense. His average jumpshooting means he has to beat you with other players. Bird could beat you with other players but he didn't have to so much.

And this topic is kind of alarming. We have still never seen Lebron put up a very good whole playoff series against a good defense. He beat Celtic and Thunder teams that were okay - and barely - but he's never been challenged the way Bird was on a regular basis (Pistons, Lakers, others).

Of course we have. We've seen him against the Celtics of 10, 11, 12. We've seen against the Bulls of 11, and the Magic of 09. He did amazing against them.

They were all top 1-3 defensive teams in the league. With respect to the Mavs, it's more amazing that he had a super crappy Finals in 11 when there were better defensive teams that he faced in the Eastern Conference that same season. He does have great individual performances against them.

LeBron is much harder to stop than Bird to me because LBJ is the greater finisher and you can't sag on him anymore, daring him to take a jumpshot because he'll make it now. Bird have more skills that I think may help a team a bit better offensive than LBJ, but LBJ (especially current LBJ) is harder to guard and contain individually. We'll see how he does in the playoffs tho.

[tmacattack33]

I have no clue...I didn't see bird and magic play.

I think it's safe to say that current Lebron is the best player since Peak Shaq (which was around 2000-2002) though.

And many people/"experts" aka tv sports personalities/ex-players say that Peak Shaq is a top 3 peak of all time. So if Lebron is near that, i would guess that would put him at Magic and Bird level or above it.

[Euroleague]

No. LeBron's basketball IQ and clutch gene is minuscule compared to either Bird or Magic.