French Open 2013

[Dolphin]

On clay probably not, but on hards or grass give me his best over anyone else's. He's a freakishly good athlete who's as fast/faster than anyone but maybe monfils when he's healthy. Plus he has monster ground strokes, huge first serve and surprisingly good touch. The problem is he's inconsistent but his best is a thing to behold. In short in the short times when he puts it all together he can move like the great defenders(nadal/djoker) and hit like the big guys

I don't think he can move and return sure winners like Nadal can. I've seen Nadal hit a million returns that he had no business even getting his racket on and hit a winner that looked like it came out of a cannon down the line. Saying Tsonga can do that at his best isn't really fair because what does that mean? One in every thirty instances he looks like Nadal on defense?

You can say Monfils and Tsonga (or Murray/Djokavic for that matter) cover as much or more ground than Nadal if you want, but what do they do with the ball once they get to it? Nadal at his best will do things with the ball that is better than what those guys can do with it. Again, a guy showing spurts of greatness does not mean that you can use that as the barometer of what his level of play is. We clearly have different ideas of how often a player has to show a level of play for that to be considered a realistic representation of his greatness. I'm sure I can find video evidence of Nadal doing stuff that I could say proves he is a god playing against mere mortals.

Let's put it this way, if Nadal and Tsonga meet at Wimbledon and you can't say that Tsonga has a decent chance of performing at his "best in world" level, or that he even has a good chance of out performing Nadal, then I can't agree with your opinion on what his best is. Again, we disagree on what the level of consistency has to be to actually say "this is so and so's realistic and expected best."

Roddick would serve aces that no one could touch at times. I'm not gonna say at his best he is the #1 all-time great because just maybe one day he will hit nothing but aces.

Tsonga hasn't even won a grand slam....he hasn't even performed at his so called best enough to win even one at this point.

[Carbine]

I think the point is if Tsonga played up to his potential, he would beat everyone. He can out hit pretty much everyone and plays defense and has the touch.

Obviously this means next to nothing in real world context because he barely ever plays up to that potential for a whole set, let along the amount of sets it would take to win. That's why he has no majors.

[Dolphin]

I think the point is if Tsonga played up to his potential, he would beat everyone. He can out hit pretty much everyone and plays defense and has the touch.

Obviously this means next to nothing in real world context because he barely ever plays up to that potential for a whole set, let along the amount of sets it would take to win. That's why he has no majors.

I understood his point. I just didn't agree that you can use such a small sample size to conclude that he is the best in the world when at his best.

Take someone like Kouznetsova. She at her best is a top 5 player in the women's game. She's proved it a lot more than Tsonga on the men's side. She's proven it enough to win a couple grand slams. That is a fair sample size. I'm not saying his proclamation is similar to me hitting a hole in one and claiming I'm PGA quality, but I feel it may be closer to that than saying Kouznetsova is top 5 player quality wise if she was mentally stronger. lol

[raiderfan19]

I'm saying for one whole match(which tsonga has done of multiple ocassions and btw dude is ranked 6 in the world and has been to a slam final so it's not like I'm talking about a bum) if you could guarantee me everyone in the game right now is playing at their absolute best(this ignores the fact that that isn't possible given that one players best would generally preclude the other from playing his best) I think tsonga beats everyone in the world on any surface other than clay. Does that have just a ton of relevance? Nope. But it does mean that fed losing to a guy like that doesn't mean he's done or anything.

I understand your point but I just disagree with what level of consistency is necessary to be considered someone's peak when that someone's lack of consistency has already been mentioned as a negative.

Also Moving and returning are different things. Tsonga isn't a good returner and even at his best he's nothing super special there. Nadal is a great returner. But once the point is going, tsongas ability to go get balls is crazy. The difference is due to his size he can't push and just keep running stuff down indefinitely.

Watch the last 3 sets he played against fed when he beat him at Wimbledon. Fed looked like a college kid hitting against a pro

[enayes]

So to sum up, Tsonga is a good player but not a great one.

[gigantes]

to sum up, that was a very interesting discussion to read. thanks, mates. love it when there's some analysis and breakdowns, not just the usual jaw-fest.

[imdaman99]

so what time is the nadal-djoker match? im in the US east coast, but if its at a decent hour i wanna watch it.

[raiderfan19]

So to sum up, Tsonga is a good player but not a great one.

To sum up, tsonga is one of the most talented players of all time, he just struggles to put it all together consistently. A guy is compare him too would be Marat safin but with much much better movement.

[Dolphin]

I'm saying for one whole match(which tsonga has done of multiple ocassions and btw dude is ranked 6 in the world and has been to a slam final so it's not like I'm talking about a bum) if you could guarantee me everyone in the game right now is playing at their absolute best(this ignores the fact that that isn't possible given that one players best would generally preclude the other from playing his best) I think tsonga beats everyone in the world on any surface other than clay. Does that have just a ton of relevance? Nope. But it does mean that fed losing to a guy like that doesn't mean he's done or anything.

I understand your point but I just disagree with what level of consistency is necessary to be considered someone's peak when that someone's lack of consistency has already been mentioned as a negative.

Also Moving and returning are different things. Tsonga isn't a good returner and even at his best he's nothing super special there. Nadal is a great returner. But once the point is going, tsongas ability to go get balls is crazy. The difference is due to his size he can't push and just keep running stuff down indefinitely.

Watch the last 3 sets he played against fed when he beat him at Wimbledon. Fed looked like a college kid hitting against a pro

I agree about Fed not being done. There are still only a handful of players that can beat him without it being kind of a shock. That's light years away from being done and it gives him a chance to win another grand slam if draws and injuries go his way...or if he conjures up some old time magic for a couple weeks, which isn't entirely out of the question yet.

Movement and return shots aren't the same, but Nadal is great at both. He may not possess the offensive array of shots that Fed had, but I can't recall someone who can make some of the shots he has made while on defense. I know on, say grass, that would effect Tsonga less, but I'm trying to convince myself that if he were to play Nadal, both at their best, that he wouldn't have trouble breaking him down consistently. Tsonga would want to end points quicker than Nadal regardless of his own moving ability, but there are times when Nadal seemingly just says "No...play on." Nadal at his best I think would find himself staying in points on Tsonga's serve more than the other way around.

I know it must seem like I'm a big Nadal fanboy (lol), but I actually have never really warmed to him. I always root for Fed or Djokovic over him....but I guess this convo gives me an opportunity to really focus on Tsonga and Nadal closely for the entire grass court season.

[DuMa]

Men's semifinals start 11AM EST on NBC on Friday. NBC coverage is blah. Ive always hated for tennis coverage. I'm not sure which semi final is going first. I am guessing Rafa/Nole on a hunch.

My predictions

Tsonga over Ferrer in 5.

Rafa over Nole in 4 sets but will take 4.5hrs. if it goes 5, well i think it could go the distance again. Probably 5+ hours. Both are really in form and it could end up being an epic match.

[bdreason]

I like Tsonga's game, and think he is capable of beating anyone if his game is clicking... but consistency is probably his biggest issue. I also highly doubt his first major will come on clay at the French Open, given that much of his game is predicated on his serve. His match against Ferrer could really go either way, but my money would be on the consistent vet in this contest.

In the end, I really don't see anyone beating Nadal barring some kind of injury; not Djoker, not Ferrer, and certainly not Tsonga.



On a side note, I've watched a few matches so far, both Men and Women, and was actually impressed with the pace of the court... then I realized the real reason it seems faster, is because the hard and grass courts have been slowed down so much. The French used to be the major where nobody could serve and volley their way through the tourney... now nobody serve and volley's on any surface.

[enayes]

To sum up, tsonga is one of the most talented players of all time, he just struggles to put it all together consistently. A guy is compare him too would be Marat safin but with much much better movement.

Every player on tour has games/matches where they show greatness. Saying that Tsonga "looks like" the best player when he is playing well is really pointless. Tsonga at his best does not beat Nadal/Joker at their best on any surface/

As far as the Safin comparison, I thought he just had mental problems when things weren't going his way. I didn't think Tsonga struggled with that. Anyway, Safin won two majors, so Tsonga would have to win one eventually to be compared to him and I don't think he will.

[enayes]

Men's semifinals start 11AM EST on NBC on Friday. NBC coverage is blah. Ive always hated for tennis coverage. I'm not sure which semi final is going first. I am guessing Rafa/Nole on a hunch.

My predictions

Tsonga over Ferrer in 5.

Rafa over Nole in 4 sets but will take 4.5hrs. if it goes 5, well i think it could go the distance again. Probably 5+ hours. Both are really in form and it could end up being an epic match.

I'm watching NBC right now. They are showing the Ferrer v. Tsonga match LIVE at 11am. The Nadal/Joker match is taking place at 7am eastern time and will only be shown on the Tennis Channel. Pretty lame.

[raiderfan19]

Every player on tour has games/matches where they show greatness. Saying that Tsonga "looks like" the best player when he is playing well is really pointless. Tsonga at his best does not beat Nadal/Joker at their best on any surface/

As far as the Safin comparison, I thought he just had mental problems when things weren't going his way. I didn't think Tsonga struggled with that. Anyway, Safin won two majors, so Tsonga would have to win one eventually to be compared to him and I don't think he will.

Safin played in one of the worst eras in men's tennis, the era between the Sampras/Agassi days and the fed/nadal days. I realize he beat fed in the semis at the Australian for one of his slams but it's a lot harder to win a slam now than it was then. Saying player a won a slam and is therefore better than player b who didn't isn't always correct.

[lefthook00]

Okay, so who is better between Rafa and Djokovic overall? I know Djokovic had a career year last year(or the year before?) and Rafa has been slipping/injured the past year or two..but I haven't really been following since maybe 2009-2010...