Tim Duncan VS Bill Walton

[LAZERUSS]

I don't see a peak Walton having any case over a peak Duncan, Shaq, Russell, Moses, KAJ, Hakeem, and Chamberlain.

[colts19]

I don't see a peak Walton having any case over a peak Duncan, Shaq, Russell, Moses, KAJ, Hakeem, and Chamberlain.

I agree with Wilt, KAJ. The others to me did not make there teams as good as Walton made his. Its like all othe the great points you make about the stats of Kareem versus Walton in the Portland vs La series. What you posted makes it clear that KAJ dominated Walton. However, the thing Walton did was allow his guards to go out and put extreme pressure on the Laker guards and that was really the difference in the game.

There is no shame in getting out scored by the second greatest scoring center of all time. This is not about Walton vs KAJ or Wilt, its about Walton vs Duncan and having watched both I will always say Walton was by far the better player.
How do you think Duncan would fare against a prime KAJ.

[LAZERUSS]

I agree with Wilt, KAJ. The others to me did not make there teams as good as Walton made his. Its like all othe the great points you make about the stats of Kareem versus Walton in the Portland vs La series. What you posted makes it clear that KAJ dominated Walton. However, the thing Walton did was allow his guards to go out and put extreme pressure on the Laker guards and that was really the difference in the game.

There is no shame in getting out scored by the second greatest scoring center of all time. This is not about Walton vs KAJ or Wilt, its about Walton vs Duncan and having watched both I will always say Walton was by far the better player.
How do you think Duncan would fare against a prime KAJ.

First off all, I do need to back off a bit. I didn't mean to imply that superior stats are always indicative of how a player or players played. Most all of the intelligent posters here (like yourself BTW), know that a player can contribute in multiple ways that simply do not show up in a boxscore. I remember reading about Russell ignoring an open shooter, simply because another better scorer had a significant advantage over his defender. Or "cheating" to the side of a teammate that had a similar disadvantage.

And there are the "hustle plays" that also don't show up. Still, these "intangibles" aren't limited to just the unselfish. I have seen Lebron chase down an opposing player from behind, and block a sure layup. Or Chamberlain diving to the floor to pick up a loose ball in a critical playoff game.

And there is no doubt that a peak Walton was among the best players ever. It was a shame that most all of his career was mired with injuries. I still believe him to be the second greatest college player of all-time (behind Alcindor/Kareem), and just ahead of Russell and Oscar. And IMO, his '73 NCAA Finals was the greatest game ever played at the college level.

Duncan/Walton is an interesting comparison. IMO, Duncan, Magic, and of course, Russell, were the greatest "winners" in NBA history. A peak Walton probably has an argument, as well. Still, it is difficult to evaluate someone with less than two "peak" seasons.

As for Kareem-Duncan...a prime/peak Kareem would certainly have no problem scoring. An old KAJ just wiped the floor with a young Hakeem over the course of two straight seasons. And a peak Kareem was capable of hanging 50 on both an old Wilt, and a young Walton. And he averaged 45 ppg, over the course of five games, in his '71-72 h2h's with Cowens.

But I have said it many times...KAJ never maximized his talent, and for whatever reasons, he didn't blend well with his teammates. If Magic hadn't come along, I honestly believe that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's, with only one ring, and with a career that would have been labled somewhat of a disappointment.

Whe motivated, KAJ was nearly as dominant as a prime Chamberlain. That was evidenced whenever he went up against a "great" (with the exception of the "Kareem-Killer", Moses Malone.) He was putting up 25 ppg games against Portland scrubs, and then, when Walton played...BOOM, 50 and 48 point outburst. He averaged 25 FGAs in his entire '72 regular season. Against Wilt in his 11 h2h games that season (five regular season and six in the WCF's)... 34 FGA per game. Interesting, though, that in KAJ's three 40+ ppg games against Chamberlain, his team lost all three (and in his 50 point game, his Bucks were blown out.)

On the other side of the coin, Duncan was a player who did seem to maximize his own talent, and the talent of those around him. I could see Timmy giving up 40+ to KAJ...but somehow putting his team in position to win.

On paper I would give a peak KAJ a solid edge, but as we all know, games are not played on paper. Russell, Duncan, and a peak Walton were examples of that.

In any case, in any of these 'all-time great" discussions, it is much more important to appreciate what all of these players accomplished. Clearly, they were great for a reason.

[La Frescobaldi]

Walton was a great player

When you are having RATIONAL sports discussion, and person dismisses the fact that 2 starters for a team missed series due to injury, you figure that person is not really a sports fan.

Anything that gets in the way of THEIR argument, just doesn't matter

including KAJ getting the better of Walton in almost every single category



Because of past experiences, only thing I can think of is that person relates to Walton on a personal level and would rather delude himself than accept reality.

I think Walton being a great white player in a sport dominated(then) by African American players has something to do with the reluctance(by some) to accept that KAJ outplayed him.

you haven't added anything at all; this post swerves close to puerility.

Don't you have anything basketball-related to say?

OK, I suppose the fillip about injured Lakers is a valid point; I just wish you'd left out the rant at the end. It adds no value and creates just a little more dissension in a world already full enough of that.

[colts19]

First off all, I do need to back off a bit. I didn't mean to imply that superior stats are always indicative of how a player or players played. Most all of the intelligent posters here (like yourself BTW), know that a player can contribute in multiple ways that simply do not show up in a boxscore. I remember reading about Russell ignoring an open shooter, simply because another better scorer had a significant advantage over his defender. Or "cheating" to the side of a teammate that had a similar disadvantage.

And there are the "hustle plays" that also don't show up. Still, these "intangibles" aren't limited to just the unselfish. I have seen Lebron chase down an opposing player from behind, and block a sure layup. Or Chamberlain diving to the floor to pick up a loose ball in a critical playoff game.

And there is no doubt that a peak Walton was among the best players ever. It was a shame that most all of his career was mired with injuries. I still believe him to be the second greatest college player of all-time (behind Alcindor/Kareem), and just ahead of Russell and Oscar. And IMO, his '73 NCAA Finals was the greatest game ever played at the college level.

Duncan/Walton is an interesting comparison. IMO, Duncan, Magic, and of course, Russell, were the greatest "winners" in NBA history. A peak Walton probably has an argument, as well. Still, it is difficult to evaluate someone with less than two "peak" seasons.

As for Kareem-Duncan...a prime/peak Kareem would certainly have no problem scoring. An old KAJ just wiped the floor with a young Hakeem over the course of two straight seasons. And a peak Kareem was capable of hanging 50 on both an old Wilt, and a young Walton. And he averaged 45 ppg, over the course of five games, in his '71-72 h2h's with Cowens.

But I have said it many times...KAJ never maximized his talent, and for whatever reasons, he didn't blend well with his teammates. If Magic hadn't come along, I honestly believe that Kareem would have retired in the mid-80's, with only one ring, and with a career that would have been labled somewhat of a disappointment.

Whe motivated, KAJ was nearly as dominant as a prime Chamberlain. That was evidenced whenever he went up against a "great" (with the exception of the "Kareem-Killer", Moses Malone.) He was putting up 25 ppg games against Portland scrubs, and then, when Walton played...BOOM, 50 and 48 point outburst. He averaged 25 FGAs in his entire '72 regular season. Against Wilt in his 11 h2h games that season (five regular season and six in the WCF's)... 34 FGA per game. Interesting, though, that in KAJ's three 40+ ppg games against Chamberlain, his team lost all three (and in his 50 point game, his Bucks were blown out.)

On the other side of the coin, Duncan was a player who did seem to maximize his own talent, and the talent of those around him. I could see Timmy giving up 40+ to KAJ...but somehow putting his team in position to win.

On paper I would give a peak KAJ a solid edge, but as we all know, games are not played on paper. Russell, Duncan, and a peak Walton were examples of that.

In any case, in any of these 'all-time great" discussions, it is much more important to appreciate what all of these players accomplished. Clearly, they were great for a reason.

Great Post, I tend to agree with everything your saying here. We all have things that we value more in the game. I value effort, and I agree with you that KAJ didn't always put out the effort he was capable of. He still reached a almost GOAT level despite that.

The reason Shaq is not in my top ten is I think he should have been the greatest player ever with his skills. He just never came close to having the killer instinct and will to reach that level.

Thanks for you reply.

[stanlove1111]

My initial reponse was a typo. It should have read, KAJ owned Walton in one game of the '77 WCF's. After that it was a basically a draw.

That one game was game two. And KAJ just crushed a helpless Walton in it. And that came in a game in which Walton had double-team help throughout.

And the only area where Walton might have had an edge in that series, was in passing.

Having said that, though, a prime Walton was not on the level of a prime KAJ in that regard. KAJ was scoring a ton more, and with more apg, at his peak. Why is that important? Because a player's scoring affects his passing (numbers.) You want a great example? In Chamberlain's 65-66 season, he averaged 34 ppg and handed out 5 apg. In his 66-67 and 67-68 seasons, he averaged 24 ppg, and dished out 8 and 9 apg.

Once again, a prime Walton could not stop or even contain a near-peak KAJ. Surrendering (and that term is applicable here) 30 ppg on 60% shooting is clearly indicative of that fact. And those numbers were achieved against Walton, with Walton receiving a ton of help defending KAJ.

And, there were quite a few other examples of Kareem just blowing Walton to shreds in their career h2hs, as well.

If you can't watch their games and be be sure that Walton was a better passer you really don't belong on a basketball site.

You are the type of guy who thinks blocked shot numners decides who is a better defender..Ridiculous..