At Worse, LeBron Retires As the 2nd Best Player in NBA History

[kenuffff]

Disagree. There is no way LeBron could dominate against Craig Ehlo, John Starks, and Danny Ainge. Those guys would have been perennial all-stars in today's league.

i mean defensively

[LBJ 23]

I actually think LeBron leaving Miami would be best for his legacy. Sure, he could win 4 or 5 titles in Miami and plant himself firmly in the top five, but if he leaves for another city he'll have a better shot at winning MVP's, losing and regaining public support, etc. It'd be a tricky game to play because he'd obviously lose a lot of the goodwill he's built up over the last year by going to another team, but I think in the long run it would help his image and let's face it, our society loves new stimuli. It would be crazy to see LeBron in a Lakers or Cavaliers jersey.

By doing that it would take him around 2-3 years to pull together all the strings and be as connected to his teammates as he is now in Miami. He would be out of his absolute prime by then. Not a very good idea.

[guy]

A super team whose 2nd and 3rd best players average 15 and 12 points respectively in the playoffs. Pippen and Grant contributed wayyyyy more than that. Super team my ass

Whether its true or not, it doesn't matter cause thats what the narrative will be. No one will care that Wade and Bosh only averaged 16 and 12 in the playoffs. What will stick out to them more will be that Wade was a FMVP and champion before Lebron ever was, a top 20-30 player of all-time and first-ballot HOFer, and Bosh is at least an 8-time all-star. Like it or not, it will be the overblown narrative, along with the narrative that Lebron had to wait for Kobe and the Lakers to get old, had to wait for the Mavs to get old and break up, couldn't beat the Celtics and their big 3 until they got old and were like 34-35 years old, and couldn't beat the Spurs until they got old and two of their big 3 were like 35-37 years old. Its going to happen. Of course, that narrative and its impact on his legacy will pale into comparison to the narrative of him having the biggest shit-the-bed/shrinkage moment in NBA history in the 2011 Finals, which isn't just a narrative but also the truth.

[Indian guy]

Whether its true or not, it doesn't matter cause thats what the narrative will be.

The narrative isn't that now, so why exactly will it be then?

No one will care that Wade and Bosh only averaged 16 and 12 in the playoffs.

Huh? Everybody cares about that now, so why will things suddenly change? People have something called memories and access to a thing called the internet. Wade and Bosh's sub-par postseason runs are not only common knowledge, but easily accessible too. This won't just be ignored.

What will stick out to them more will be that Wade was a FMVP and champion before Lebron ever was

Actually, what will stick out more is that Wade hadn't made it past the 1st round for 4 straight years prior to teaming up with LeBron. You know what will stick it out even more? LeBron winning 2 near-unanimous MVPs with "2 superstars" as his teammates. Nobody's going to give a **** about who his teammates were when his own play and accolades were that dominant. Just like nobody gives a **** now. There's no "narrative" right now about LeBron having special help. The prevailing consensus, not to mention actual statistical data, is that the Miami Heat were no "super team", and that LeBron was carrying them for much of their 2 postseason runs. That's the narrative.

Like it or not, it will be the overblown narrative

Again, the narrative isn't that now, so why the **** will it be so in the future? Will people just become stupid like you, and ignore the fact that Wade and Bosh hadn't accomplished jack for years prior to teaming up with LeBron, had subpar postseason runs to put it mildly, and despite their presence, LeBron still won near-unanimous back-to-back MVPs, not to mention Finals MVPs? Wade and Bosh couldn't be more irrelevant to LeBron's future legacy. Just like they aren't right now.

along with the narrative that Lebron had to wait for Kobe and the Lakers to get old, had to wait for the Mavs to get old and break up, couldn't beat the Celtics and their big 3 until they got old and were like 34-35 years old, and couldn't beat the Spurs until they got old and two of their big 3 were like 35-37 years old.

Again, dumbass, the narrative isn't that now, so why the **** will things be different in the future? I'm yet to hear anyone talk about what you just said.

Do you see anyone talking about how MJ couldn't win championships until the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons got old? Franchises/teams that were far more dominant in their era than the teams you listed? I mean, the 1-title Celtics and Mavs? . Could you be grasping at straws any more? If anything, LeBron's legacy will be boasted by beating the game's 2nd most dominant trio in Durant-Westbrook-Harden for his 1st title, and the dynasty-Spurs for his 2nd title. He beat big-names and franchises for his rings. Nobody's going to forget that.

[Fudge]

Word of the day: narrative



Indian Guy, aren't/weren't you a Bulls fan? What made you become a Heat fan? Just curious.

[imdaman99]

at worst? look at this troll. non-stop troll threads

at BEST, he could finish 2nd. he cannot touch MJ and his 6-0 record in the finals. get lost, and stay in school.

[Jacks3]

Spurs are a dynasty now?

[Indian guy]

Word of the day: narrative



Indian Guy, aren't/weren't you a Bulls fan? What made you become a Heat fan? Just curious.

LeBron fan, not a Heat fan. And it's something I've always been no matter how badly I've rooted for the Bulls.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Agreed. Hakeem's 8 first round exits

Sure, that is definitely a knock on Hakeem. I don't really hold it against him because his team wasn't good enough imo to win a title or advance deep. Do we hold Jordans loses in the 80's against him? Is it rational to hold Kobe's loses in 06, 07 against him? I'm sure you don't hold it against lebron when he didn't even make the playoffs his first two years(Hakeem did) and lost in the second round his 3rd.

First round series were best of 5. He lost in the first round 4 years in a row from 88-91 .

I'm not a huge stat guy, but in 1988 when Hakeem lost to Mavericks 3-1 he averaged 37.5 points 16.8 rebounds 1.8 assists 2.8 blocks 2.3 steals. Those are some INSANE numbers.



In 89 the Supersonics held him to only 25.3 points 13 rebounds 3 assists 2.8 blocks and 2.5 steals.



Hakeem did play poorly(according to raw stats) against my Lakers in 90 averaging only 18.5 points 11.5 rebounds 2 assist 5.8 blocks(wow) and 2.5 steals



in 91 he got swept by the WC champs my Lakers and he averaged 22 points 14.7 rebounds 2 assists 2.7 blocks and 1.3 steals.



He had some great perfromances in those first round loses and some poor perfromances (by his standards), but in which of those years do you really think it was his fault they lost?

I can point to several years in LBJ careers where he "quit" or played so poorly that he cost them a title. Can you do this for Hakeem?

In 2010 he quit against the Celtics and IMO it was because he wanted out of Cleveland but even he wouldn't be able to justify leaving after bringing his team to the finals and perhaps even beating the Lakers.

In 2011 he played so passively and shook that he cost himself a 3 peat. Perhaps he will get it next year, but if he doesn't 2011 will be the biggest disappointment of all because not many people have EVER threepeated...

In 2007 he played great to get them to the finals but completely lost it when SA took away the paint. Clevelands defense and rebounding was good enough to win the series. Most of the games were close and decided by a few baskets, but LBJ couldn't hit a jumper and couldn't close a game.

I have Hakeem over LBJ for now because they both have 2 titles and because I think Hakeems Elite post game and Elite rim protection and rebounding is better than what Lebron has to offer.

I don't think Lebron wins 4 MVPs if he is drafted in 85 like Hakeem and he competes against Magic, Bird, Jordan.

I don't put too much weight into MVPs anyways with players like Malone winning over Jordan, Nash over Kobe, Drose over Lebron anyways.

For my rankings it is a combination of how good of a basketball player you are with how many championships you win. I don't put much weight into loses when your team really didn't have a chance to win.

[Fudge]

Sure, that is definitely a knock on Hakeem. I don't really hold it against him because his team wasn't good enough imo to win a title or advance deep. Do we hold Jordans loses in the 80's against him? Is it rational to hold Kobe's loses in 06, 07 against him? I'm sure you don't hold it against lebron when he didn't even make the playoffs his first two years(Hakeem did) and lost in the second round his 3rd.

First round series were best of 5. He lost in the first round 4 years in a row from 88-91 .

I'm not a huge stat guy, but in 1988 when Hakeem lost to Mavericks 3-1 he averaged 37.5 points 16.8 rebounds 1.8 assists 2.8 blocks 2.3 steals. Those are some INSANE numbers.



In 89 the Supersonics held him to only 24.8 points 13.5 rebounds 1.8 assists 3.4 blocks and 2.6 steals.



Hakeem did play poorly(according to raw stats) against my Lakers in 90 averaging only 18.5 points 11.5 rebounds 2 assist 5.8 blocks(wow) and 2.5 steals



in 91 he got swept by the WC champs my Lakers and he averaged 22 points 14.7 rebounds 2 assists 2.7 blocks and 1.3 steals.



He had some great perfromances in those first round loses and some poor perfromances (by his standards), but in which of those years do you really think it was his fault they lost?

I can point to several years in LBJ careers where he "quit" or played so poorly that he cost them a title. Can you do this for Hakeem?

In 2010 he quit against the Celtics and IMO it was because he wanted out of Cleveland but even he wouldn't be able to justify leaving after bringing his team to the finals and perhaps even beating the Lakers.

In 2011 he played so passively and shook that he cost himself a 3 peat. Perhaps he will get it next year, but if he doesn't 2011 will be the biggest disappointment of all because not many people have EVER threepeated...

In 2007 he played great to get them to the finals but completely lost it when SA took away the paint. Clevelands defense and rebounding was good enough to win the series. Most of the games were close and decided by a few baskets, but LBJ couldn't hit a jumper and couldn't close a game.

I have Hakeem over LBJ for now because they both have 2 titles and because I think Hakeems Elite post game and Elite rim protection and rebounding is better than what Lebron has to offer.

I don't think Lebron wins 4 MVPs if he is drafted in 85 like Hakeem and he competes against Magic, Bird, Jordan.

I don't put too much weight into MVPs anyways with players like Malone winning over Jordan, Nash over Kobe, Drose over Lebron anyways.

For my rankings it is a combination of how good of a basketball player you are with how many championships you win. I don't put much weight into loses when your team really didn't have a chance to win.

2nd screenshot were his season stats.

[guy]

The narrative isn't that now, so why exactly will it be then?



Huh? Everybody cares about that now, so why will things suddenly change? People have something called memories and access to a thing called the internet. Wade and Bosh's sub-par postseason runs are not only common knowledge, but easily accessible too. This won't just be ignored.



Actually, what will stick out more is that Wade hadn't made it past the 1st round for 4 straight years prior to teaming up with LeBron. You know what will stick it out even more? LeBron winning 2 near-unanimous MVPs with "2 superstars" as his teammates. Nobody's going to give a **** about who his teammates were when his own play and accolades were that dominant. Just like nobody gives a **** now. There's no "narrative" right now about LeBron having special help. The prevailing consensus, not to mention actual statistical data, is that the Miami Heat were no "super team", and that LeBron was carrying them for much of their 2 postseason runs. That's the narrative.



Again, the narrative isn't that now, so why the **** will it be so in the future? Will people just become stupid like you, and ignore the fact that Wade and Bosh hadn't accomplished jack for years prior to teaming up with LeBron, had subpar postseason runs to put it mildly, and despite their presence, LeBron still won near-unanimous back-to-back MVPs, not to mention Finals MVPs? Wade and Bosh couldn't be more irrelevant to LeBron's future legacy. Just like they aren't right now.



Again, dumbass, the narrative isn't that now, so why the **** will things be different in the future? I'm yet to hear anyone talk about what you just said.

Do you see anyone talking about how MJ couldn't win championships until the Celtics, Lakers and Pistons got old? Franchises/teams that were far more dominant in their era than the teams you listed? I mean, the 1-title Celtics and Mavs? . Could you be grasping at straws any more? If anything, LeBron's legacy will be boasted by beating the game's 2nd most dominant trio in Durant-Westbrook-Harden for his 1st title, and the dynasty-Spurs for his 2nd title. He beat big-names and franchises for his rings. Nobody's going to forget that.

Ummm, all the Jordan detractors bring up exactly the bolded. We aren't talking about "NOW". The perception back then about certain details about Jordan and the Bulls dynasty isn't the same as it is now, 15-20 years later, just like the perception 15-20 years from now about Lebron and the Heat won't be the same as it is today, specifically from Lebron detractors. So DUMBASS, you get that? Were you even following the discussion and able to understand? Obviously you weren't, so shut the **** up and put on your Lebron headband you fake Bulls fan.

[TheGreatDeraj]

2nd screenshot were his season stats.

thanks fixed i knew something wasn't right

[2010splash]

Of course. I don't know how people can deny this obvious fact at this point. But you have several idiots who think he's just barely in the top 10 now with guys like Hakeem, Kobe and Bird.

He will finish no worse than #2 or 1b. all time. Nobody will be closer to Jordan than LeBron (until 2050 and beyond of course).

[SilkkTheShocker]

Of course. I don't know how people can deny this obvious fact at this point. But you have several idiots who think he's just barely in the top 10 now with guys like Hakeem, Kobe and Bird.

He will finish no worse than #2 or 1b. all time. Nobody will be closer to Jordan than LeBron (until 2050 and beyond of course).

This. I always have to laugh at these people still trying to put LeBron behind inferior players like Kobe, Chamberlain, Russell, Hakeem, etc. Its a ****ing joke and shouldn't be taken seriously

[2010splash]

By 2015 or so:

Tier 1: Jordan, LeBron

Tier 2: Wilt/Kareem/Russell

Tier 3: Shaq/Duncan/Magic/Bird

Tier 4: Kobe, Hakeem