Would Kobe's legacy look better if he had this career arc?

[DMAVS41]

You act like rings and longevity is something that just gets handed out.

Here's a thought, his "level of play" is the reason for his rings & longevity

You act like Kobes level of play is somehow unrelated to his championships and continued success

Not at all.

But this is talking about removing those rings and his level of play isn't changing.

So how is it better? Because he might have a 2 ppg higher career scoring average? Who cares?

It's not given out, but if you gave a guy like KG or Dirk or Wade or Lebron or Duncan or Shaq the kind of help Kobe has had throughout his career...the results would also be great. It's just a non point. Give the best players the most help and you are going to get a lot of wins in the playoffs and regular season.

Does that mean they all win as much as Kobe? Nope. Some might win less...some might win more...but part of winning a ring is absolutely handed out in these terms. Kobe was great, but his situation was also great as well. and it's not just Kobe. same with other great players like magic and bird and shaq...etc.

[DMAVS41]

Worked himself into the ground in 2003. And if he plays at 2003 level without the wear and tear of 3 title runs, I think he can get far (and maybe win the MVP).



Not if he played on a good team (which is the premise of this thread).



Let's say he has as much help as he did in 09 and 10.

A ton of success. Just like all the best players of this era would have had. So it means very little to me.

Give Dirk that same kind of help (not arguing Dirk is better than Kobe) and he's going to win a lot and definitely win multiple championships.

So it's kind of meh to me. You'd get the results you expect. Give an all time great player great help...and you are going to win.

[Magic 32]

Pretty much? Sure...but that was 4 years into his career already. And playing with a guy like Shaq takes a huge burden off no matter how many shots a player takes. 8 years with prime Shaq just helps longevity in my opinion.

I just don't get this talk honestly.

You could say the same about so many players of this era. You separate players ultimately by level of play and impact. What would KG's career be like if he played with Kobe's help and vice versa is actually a more compelling discussion.

Postulating what Kobe would have done as the best player on stacked teams without Shaq is kind of silly. He would have been great and his team would have won a lot of games. Every great player of the era would have done that....Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Lebron, Wade...

You give those guys top 2 or 3 supporting casts and you are going to get great results in both the regular season and playoffs overall.

Compared to Vince, TMac and AI, of course he has been lucky to have the career he has had.

Be compared with other top 10'ish players?

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Lebron, Shaq were all on great teams for long stretches of their prime.

[Jacks3]

Except he wouldn't have won his first 3 titles without Shaq.

I was talking about the multiple rings with Pau.

And Kobe was already a top 3 player in the league in 2001 by age 22.

He was already easily capable of being the #1 on a Championship team by that point. He could have easily won more rings at the #1. You're kidding yourself if you think the Lakers organization couldn't have built around him.

[LosScandalous]

If he had a top 5 roster with his true prime (03-09 postseason, 7 full seasons) every single season, he would of won a ring almost every single year. At least 5 rings more likely 6, 7 a possibility.

So by your criteria 96-02' would have been the statpadding/try hard years which is acceptable on a bad roster. During that time we would have saw just a young man shine but with little success. Meaningless years but it will show how great he really is.

One of the best things about Kobe's career is his ability to be great at an older age with a ton of minutes/wear and tear on his body. It shows how much he loves the game and shows how much work and effort he puts in the game just to win.

If he takes a back seat in 2010-2013 (ages 31-34) it hurts his legacy. It shows he declined and or his passion of the game dissolved a little bit. Maybe he went ring chasing who knows because you didn't say he had to play for The Lakers.

I think by your criteria it would benefit Bryant's legacy greatly by the fact he now wins a bunch of rings as a lone number 1 option in his prime.

It's loosely similar to Shaq's career timeline arc and people don't bash on Shaq for taking a 2nd option in 2006 and for being a 3rd/4th option in the later years of his career.

[Jacks3]

It would look better. He doesn't get any credit for those 3 rings with Shaq, so his career would have definitely looked better if he had his own team from the beginning. He'd still have multiple rings/Finals appearances as "the man" but also:

Much better career numbers. Instead of 26/5/5/2 he'd probably be somewhere around 30/6/5/2.
Much better post-season numbers.
Another MVP award or 2.
Far more 40+, 50+, 60+ pt games. Right now hes at 120/25/5. With his own team from the beginning of his career, he'd probably be at around 180-90/40/9-12.

Damn shame he was stuck with Shaq for 8 seasons.

Could have been a top 5 player all-time instead of merely top 10.

Oh yeah, and more rings as the #1 from 01-08 possibly. I don't see the Lakers organization failing to put a appropriate supporting cast around a transcendent talent like Kobe.

[DMAVS41]

Compared to Vince, TMac and AI, of course he has been lucky to have the career he has had.

Be compared with other top 10'ish players?

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Lebron, Shaq were all on great teams for long stretches of their prime.

Kobe definitely has played with overall more help than Duncan and Lebron. But I agree other guys played with a ton of help as well.

Which is why I don't like using rings so heavily in these arguments. You put truly great players on great teams and you are going to win a lot...

[LongLiveTheKing]

I was talking about the multiple rings with Pau.

And Kobe was already a top 3 player in the league in 2001 by age 22.

He was already easily capable of being the #1 on a Championship team by that point. He could have easily won more rings at the #1. You're kidding yourself if you think the Lakers organization couldn't have built around him.

Theirs no way Kobe would've won a championship alone that early, it took him 12 years to lead a team on his own to a championship. It would take him a long time to win considering it took him about 5 years to become and elite player and he dropped off slightly in 2002.

[K Xerxes]

Compared to Vince, TMac and AI, of course he has been lucky to have the career he has had.

Be compared with other top 10'ish players?

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Lebron, Shaq were all on great teams for long stretches of their prime.

I say Kobe's prime is from 01-10 ish.

He was on contending team from 01-04 (2 titles).

Crap team from 05-07.

Contending team from 08-10 (2 titles).

So, yes, it's a shame that 2 of his 3 peak years, he spent with a crap team. But he won 2 years at the beginning of his prime as a second option, and won 2 titles as the first option at the end of his prime.

I say Kobe hasn't had it that bad.

[DMAVS41]

Oh yeah, and more rings as the #1 from 01-08 possibly. I don't see the Lakers organization failing to put a appropriate supporting cast around a transcendent talent like Kobe.

Again. You could say that about so many other players. That is the problem.

Duncan and Shaq were better than Kobe years from 00 through 05. Then you had guys like Dirk and Wade and Lebron for years after. KG deserves mention as well.

In this hypothetical. What kind of teams do all those guys have?

The problem with all of this is that what years was Kobe really the best player in the league? I think you could argue 06, 07, and 08. I personally believe he was the best in 07 and 08...so it would depend on what the other elite or best players had in terms of help.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Kobe's career is boosted by his rings. Saying otherwise is absurd.

Kobe's level of play alone puts him roughly in the 10 to 12 range all time. The only way you get him higher is with rings and longevity. And being the best player on his team early on would have yielded less rings and likely hurt his longevity as carrying a bigger load would have likely added too much wear and tear for him to play at the level he has (when healthy) the last few years.

Who are the top 11 players who best Kobe all time (not counting rings and longevity)?

or do they get to keep their rings vs Kobe with no rings?

[KG215]

Compared to Vince, TMac and AI, of course he has been lucky to have the career he has had.

Be compared with other top 10'ish players?

Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Lebron, Shaq were all on great teams for long stretches of their prime.

Those players were their team's best player the minute they stepped on an NBA court. There's a decent chance that wouldn't have been the case with Kobe even if he hadn't been drafted on a team with prime Shaq. So I don't know what Kobe's help would've looked like in comparison to those if he had been drafted by a worse team. There's actually a pretty good chance if, say, he goes top 5 in that draft to a bad enough team, the team stays bad enough for another season or two to get a couple more top 3/5/10 picks. And if they make the right pick, you could've built a pretty good team around Kobe just through the draft alone.

[Jacks3]

Theirs no way Kobe would've won a championship alone that early, it took him 12 years to lead a team on his own to a championship. .

lol what? It took him twelve years because he stuck behind Shaq than when he finally got his own team he had to play with the likes of Kwame Brown/Smush Parer/Luke Walton/Odom/Mihm. A historically bad supporting cast.

Like I said, Kobe by 2001 was already a top 3 player.

29/6/5/2 on excellent efficiency during the regular season (+3.5).
29+/7+/6+/2+ on even better efficiency during the post-season (+4.4).

He was the best offensive player in the league not named Shaq and a terrific defender as well.

Give him a good supporting cast and he's easily contending.

[Magic 32]

I say Kobe's prime is from 01-10 ish.

He was on contending team from 01-04 (2 titles).

Crap team from 05-07.

Contending team from 08-10 (2 titles).

So, yes, it's a shame that 2 of his 3 peak years, he spent with a crap team. But he won 2 years at the beginning of his prime as a second option, and won 2 titles as the first option at the end of his prime.

I say Kobe hasn't had it that bad.

I agree. Maybe I should have said peak instead (and that applies to those players as well).

Hakeem, Wilt, Kareem and Oscar were in the same boat though.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Those players were their team's best player the minute they stepped on an NBA court. There's a decent chance that wouldn't have been the case with Kobe even if he hadn't been drafted on a team with prime Shaq.

They were also 21, 20, 23, 21, 22, 18 and 20.

How many 18 year olds were better than 18 year old Kobe? Lebron? Is that it?