I have to ask this question again about women in history

[Nick Young]

Where are all the great ones?

I know the traditional excuse is that females were oppressed by the patriarchy until the 70s.

But if you look at reality that's not entirely true.

Science wise, I understand there's a huge stigma against female scientists that still exists today, so fair enough that there aren't any female Newtons or Darwins.

But what about the arts? Writing and music and painting, these are fields that women have ALWAYS been encouraged to participate in! In Europe for example, women in the aristocracy were always encouraged to play music, learn painting and write poetry, and families paid huge amounts to ensure that their daughters had the best tutors.

So where are the female Rembrandts, the female Mozarts, the female Bethovens, the female Tolstoys and Dostoyevskys? Why doesn't it happen?

I try so hard to tell myself that women are the intellectual equals to men, but if I try to look at things completely objectively, from the perspective of an alien visitor, it doesn't look that way at all.


ALSO I don't appreciate how women are elevated above men in history simply because they're women.

Joan of Arc for example was a horrible shitty general, she won a couple fluke battles, proceeded to lose the rest and then got captured within a year of her campaign! She was not a great leader!

Florence Nightengale was a goddamn nurse! The field of nursing is not as important as surgery yet history books elevate her above many of the greatest surgeons!

Now Jane Austen is getting on britians 10 pound note ahead of Winston Churchill?


I want true equality. I force myself to believe that both genders are completely equal.

And you can never bring this topic up in public because you instantly get branded a close-minded mysoginistic agent of the patriarchy.

But then once again this question is difficult for me to get my head around: Where are the great female artists creating work on the same level as the greatest male artists? Why is there no War and Peace written by a female? Where is the female Rembrandt? Why is there no female Liszt?

Philosophy too as well now that I think about it: Why is there no female Kant, female Socrates, or female Hobbes?

If you look at history truthfully, the "patriarchal oppression" was never close to the level that modern feminists would have you believe if you follow their words blindly. Patriarchal oppression is not the reason for this huge disconnect between the genders.

[Jameerthefear]

Ada Lovelace?

[Nick Young]

Ada Lovelace?

Nice, she's legit. They need to make an oscar winning movie about her starring Keira Knightley so she starts getting credit she deserves.

[bmulls]

How many prominent muslim women are there today?

There are prominent women in the Western world today, yet none in the middle east. Take the way women are treated in the muslim world and imagine that every where since the beginning of man kind. That's why there aren't many great women through history.

[Nick Young]

How many prominent muslim women are there today?

There are prominent women in the Western world today, yet none in the middle east. Take the way women are treated in the muslim world and imagine that every where since the beginning of man kind. That's why there aren't many great women through history.

the best and most popular architect working today, Zaha Hadid, born in Baghdad.

Designed many great buildings, she should be remembered as one of the all time greats


Also Marjane Satrapi, cartoonist of Persepolis, very big comic about growing up in Iran



Shirin Ebadi, was chief judge in Iran before the 1979 revolution, won nobel prize not that they mean much any more after Obamas.

Don't rewrite history, "oppression of women" in europe was never close to the level modern feminists have you believe, also in east asia or africa or south america it wasn't really that bad. And it's not like males weren't oppressed themselves, forced to die in wars and work on land for lords and kings, forced to travel hundreds of miles and sacrifice their lives in battle for a cause that has nothing to do with them, women never had to go through anything like that. Look at real history, not rhetoric propaganda history. In Europe especially from the 1500s onward it was fashionable for the richest families to pay the greatest teachers to train their daughters in music lessons or painting lessons for hours and hours at a time. Mozart and Bethoven taught many female pupils just as an example, same as Rembrandt and Ruebens and many other great artists, how come none of their female pupills became greats themselves?

[shaq2000]

Grace Hopper.

[UConnCeltics]

Marie Curie was pretty useful for science.

[Nick Young]

Marie Curie was pretty useful for science.

In your opinion was she at the Galileo-Darwin-Newton-Pasteur-Aristotle level?

[gigantes]

But what about the arts? Writing and music and painting, these are fields that women have ALWAYS been encouraged to participate in! In Europe for example, women in the aristocracy were always encouraged to play music, learn painting and write poetry, and families paid huge amounts to ensure that their daughters had the best tutors.

if there's one area of the arts (er, besides dance, song, performance) that have produced large numbers of greatly talented women, it's writing. i couldn't even begin to list the excellent books i've read by women, and the latest one i'm reading, "the other side of the tiber" by wallis wilde-menozzi is definitely an instant classic.

but it's harder for me when it comes to fine art. besides camille claudel, frida kahlo, mary cassatt, georgia o'keefe i'm kind of at a loss as far as past history goes.

in contemporary history, judith schaecter's lightboxes are utterly brilliant IMO. never seen anything like them before when i first saw them back in the mid 90's. can't really get the full effect without seeing in person, but some examples:
http://www.judithschaechter.com/Older%20Work.html


another judith... vierow who lives around here is a genius with color. actually i haven't been to the galleries in a long time, so i'm sure i'm missing out on lots more.

I try so hard to tell myself that women are the intellectual equals to men, but if I try to look at things completely objectively, from the perspective of an alien visitor, it doesn't look that way at all.

that was a terrible mistake i made for a long time. women are not equal to men, just like the races aren't equal, just like nothing in life is really equal. women average the same IQ scores as men, but they come at it with very different brain composition. they have 10x our level of white matter, so they are natively way better at forming networks and finding connections than we are. while we have 6x their level of grey matter, which tends to make us the deeper and more focused thinkers on single subjects.

And you can never bring this topic up in public because you instantly get branded a close-minded mysoginistic agent of the patriarchy.

basic fact of life: KMFDM. no pity for the majority. now go out and deal with it.

If you look at history truthfully, the "patriarchal oppression" was never close to the level that modern feminists would have you believe if you follow their words blindly. Patriarchal oppression is not the reason for this huge disconnect between the genders.

agree, patriarchal oppression is not the reason for the disconnect, but don't fool yourself... across just about every form of civilisation it was pretty much a landslide favoring men's rights over women's. if you have a basic overview of history then you should know this.

women generally get what they want by the power of networks and alternate strategies to circumvent direct confrontation. if you understand a few principles like this about women, it explains the vast majority of their behavior and why their names do not pop up as much in history.

no, they tend to work behind the scenes of history.

[bmulls]

the best and most popular architect working today, Zaha Hadid, born in Baghdad.

Designed many great buildings, she should be remembered as one of the all time greats


Also Marjane Satrapi, cartoonist of Persepolis, very big comic about growing up in Iran



Shirin Ebadi, was chief judge in Iran before the 1979 revolution, won nobel prize not that they mean much any more after Obamas.

Don't rewrite history, "oppression of women" in europe was never close to the level modern feminists have you believe, also in east asia or africa or south america it wasn't really that bad. And it's not like males weren't oppressed themselves, forced to die in wars and work on land for lords and kings, forced to travel hundreds of miles and sacrifice their lives in battle for a cause that has nothing to do with them, women never had to go through anything like that. Look at real history, not rhetoric propaganda history. In Europe especially from the 1500s onward it was fashionable for the richest families to pay the greatest teachers to train their daughters in music lessons or painting lessons for hours and hours at a time. Mozart and Bethoven taught many female pupils just as an example, same as Rembrandt and Ruebens and many other great artists, how come none of their female pupills became greats themselves?

You just proved my point. The most prominent muslim women are a fcking architect and a fcking cartoon writer, and the architect lives in Britain.

In the Western world you've got female Prime Minister of Australia, female Secretary of State, female CEOs, etc. Women in legitimate positions of power.

Idk if this thread makes you feel better about yourself or something, but it's kind of pathetic.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Prime Minister of Australia really lost me when she played the "feel sorry for me - I'm a girl' to protect her own misogynist parliment memeber. People like her invalidate whatever the idiotic feminist movement is trying to accomplish.

Helen Clark, for me the greatest female politician ever.

[Rubio2Gasol]

How many prominent muslim women are there today?

There are prominent women in the Western world today, yet none in the middle east. Take the way women are treated in the muslim world and imagine that every where since the beginning of man kind. That's why there aren't many great women through history.

Patriarchy is somewhat responsible, but not at all to the extent you seem to think. Both men and women have been greatly oppressed throughout history, men though have been somewhat placated and encouraged to study.

But in the modern post-renaissance western world, invention and genius is rarely rejected on the basis of gender.

Before that it was suppressed on the basis of class, which both men and women suffered for.

[Graviton]

Women are just not as intelligent as men, simple a that. They lack the cold emotionless logic and ruthless attitude to reach their full potential. And that "oppressed" excuse is hardly relevant considering lot of the great writers, geniuses and scientist were oppressed themselves. They discovered things on their own.

And what exactly are women better at? Even the best cooks in the world are male.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Aunt Jemima is probably the most notable one in history.

[eppelp]

It's a numbers game. There have been tens of thousands of male Rulers, Scientists and artists and how many of them were truly "great"? There have been fewer female rulers, scientists etc and therefore the great females a fewer and tend to disappear among the more numerous males.