A sad situation. When being unselfish hurts your standing in history.

[Kblaze8855]

3 guys come to mind....

1.

Doctor J....widely considered the best basketball player in the world when he was in the ABA. He comes to the NBA to join a team of...lets be real...asshole ballhogs. Hes playing with World B Free(an upcoming feature in my "**** it" players series), George Mcginnis(who missed the shot to tie game 6 of the 77 finals when he insisted he could beat his man), Darryl Dawkins who just wanted to show off, Doug Collins who was good but a scorer first and second, and even Kobes dad who ive heard was a bit of a ball stopper. Does he come in and insist on being the focal point and getting shots like in the ABA? No. He took 25 shots a game some years in the ABA. He took almost 1900 shots last season in the ABA. Dropped to 1300 in the NBA. The best attacker the world had ever seen gave up 500 shots to play his part and not rock the boat. And it worked. Not as well as him taking over perhaps...as they didnt win in his first few years. But they contended from day one. Make the finals and lose....while Doc decides to push his scoring back into the upper 30s. But he didnt really do it that often. He didnt want to tell these guys "Im Doctor ****ing J!" but nobody in the world could really stop him and every player you ask from the time knew it.

The only 2 season he got to 19 shots a game in the NBA....he won the MVP one year and finished second to Kareem the other. But Doc kept right along playing nice. Made 4 finals and did win a ring. But a meaner less teammate friendly Doctor J may have led a dynasty in philly.

And worse....he really tainted his legacy(a word ive come to hate) by giving off the impression that he was anything less than a monster in the NBA. People see his NBA numbers decline from the ABA and act like he just fell off playing the big boys. Myself sadly among them when I was younger.

But Doctor J was looked at with awe even by other all time greats. But he didnt take shine from his teammates. He let Toney shine...George...Moses...Collins...Dawkins...World B. Free, Cheeks, Jones, and later Barkley.

He didnt hurt anyones feelings nobody ever had a bad word to say about him and he falls from "A lot of people think hes the best player they ever saw" to getting laughs when someone ranks him top 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADC0ltClxWQ

Look around the 3 minute mark in there. That is how the world saw Doc when he retired. The opposing teams fans give him a standing ovation and the commentator compares him not to Wilt or Oscar or Magic...

He ranks him next to Jesse Owens and Joe Dimaggio. But you look at where hes ranked now...those 20-22ppg seasons and playing nice as his teammates shot them out of games get him knocked way down.


2.

Earl Monroe.

Earl is another guy spoken of almost as a god on the bullets and in college/HS/the streets. He was dropping 23-26 a game on the Bullets...led his team to the finals. Hes dropping 28, 28, and 22 a game in the playoffs on teams that made noise. Made one finals and lost in 7 to an all time great Knicks team another year(he put up 28 on 48% shooting in the series).

He gets into a contract dispute with his team and decides to jump to the ABA. At the last minute his team decides to extend him for like 3 years...at half what the ABA offered. And at the time the league owned you. They would have sued to keep him from playing in the ABA. And won. The Warriors did it with Rick Barry and made him sit out a season. The Lakers did it with Wilt when he was gonna be a player/coach in I think 74.

So hes stuck...but unhappy...so they are gonna trade him. But they showed him the respect of offering him a choice....he decided he was willing to go play as a role player on the Knicks.

The supposedly most selfish shot happy player in basketball willingly accepts a trade to go be a role player and score 11ppg while his nemesis Walt Frazier gets the shots and the love from history.

This guy went from all nba first team to not even being an all star for 3 years. Won a ring...but nobody cares.

He stays on the Bullets perhaps hes in a trio with Hayes and Unseld and instead of making 3 finals and winning one maybe they make 5-6 and win 4. He might be ranked top 15-20 all time right now...instead hes approaching "Who?" status aside from a really well known nickname.

3.

Wilt on the Lakers.

By all accounts Wilt was doing exactly what he was asked to do. He didnt turn his teammates into spectators by shooting a lot. He didnt statpad assists at the expense of making his own easy baskets. He just played all out help defense, made his man play honest to keep driving lanes open, would fling outlet passes 60 feet to start the break, he set epic picks to free up West and Goodrich, and he scored when asked or when he got the rebound right next to the basket.

So his team played amazing ball at one point not losing for 3 months and won the title and made a few other finals 2 of which were within a single play of going his way.


And now he gets hated on for not scoring more in his winning days...when he proved he could. He dropped 66 points on I think 29-35 shooting vs the Suns when SI ran an article questioning if he still could. This guy...who could probably still drop 40 a game....decided...to let his teammates shine, pass the ball, rebound, block shots, and let the non informed believe he was washed up. While his great rival Bill Russell(a commentator for CBS at the time) praised him for playing the role he himself played for the Celtics...but being better than him at it.

And 40 years later his PPG gets laughed at.





For all we talk about being unselfish we sure do knock guys who take a hit to their stats in the process of winning.

What modern players do you think are getting/will get that longterm treatment where maybe they would be better off having been more focused on themselves?

I could see Manu being one.

I think a lot of spurs fans overrated him.....but hes better than his numbers thats for sure.

And I cant see him even coming up as a great player down the line. 2 time all star having 15-16ppg seasons at 27-28? Hes kinda the new Earl Monroe except he never had his Bullets run to put people on notice that his lack of tangible production is by choice.

For a trait we all seem to admire why are so many unselfish players overlooked?

Maybe the assholes have it right. You get remembered for 22ppg and losing in the second round.

Being a 11ppg role player on a winner?

That just makes you Ron Harper...who was by the way a 20/6/5 2 steals a game player the year before he joined the Bulls...he recovered nicely from his injuries. But he becomes a 6ppg defensive role player months after he was a star on the Clippers. He had 30/9/8 in his last full game on the clippers and never had 30 again in his life. He might have had 10 20 point nights the rest of his career. But I kinda doubt it. Dude just turned to a straight up stopper and backup point playing totally selfless to win.

He goes from star to 6ppg and hes remembered as a role player. But he won 5 rings and didnt win them as some scrub. He just didnt choose to assert himself and rock the boat.

I try to remember players for what they can do more than what their role allows especially if they are playing an important role on a winner. But its hard sometimes.

Who do you see getting the Manu/Ron Harper treatment longterm?

And how much do you respect role players who decide to do it and arent forced into it by a lack of skills?

Do you give them a spot next to the guys they probably could be but arent ego driven enough to attempt to do it?

[Mamba]

another A+ post by Kblaze.

Dunking from the freethrow line back then when it is still considered an awe inspiring dunk these days sais enough on how athletic and ahead of his time his game was. The guy was ruling the ABA because he could do it any which way he wanted to.

Amazing post Kblaze simply amazing

[Scholar]

Who do you see getting the Manu/Ron Harper treatment longterm?

Current players who I think will receive this rep are:
Metta World Peace: went from 17+ PPG to >13 (even below 10 ppg the first couple seasons) after becoming a Laker. Dude probably won't be remembered for being a defensive beast.

Jason Terry: there was a time when the Jet dropped 20 a night without a problem. Now he's a bench player. Some will barely remember how much he mattered in the 2011 Finals, while others will barely remember him beyond his flying signature taunt.

Amare Stoudemire: go ahead and hate on him if you want, but he went from 26 PPG to now being a bench player. Injuries will do that to you, sure, but I think people will completely ignore Stoudemire's offensive presence in a few years. I think some will claim he didn't do shit once he left PHX, but the guy held (maybe still holds.. Idk) the record for most consecutive 30+ points for the Knicks. That's pretty damn impressive.

and...





Dwayne Wade.

Yes, DWade. Even though he's averaging 20+ PPG every year, you can already see people are referring to him merely as a sidekick. I don't think he'll get the proper respect he deserves when it's all said and done. People will just give credit to LeBron. And maybe some of it will be accurate (his injuries made him almost a no-show in the 2013 Playoffs/Finals), but you take Wade off this Heat roster and I doubt they appear in 3 straight Finals.

And how much do you respect role players who decide to do it and arent forced into it by a lack of skills?

I think it's a great attribute to have. It shows the selflessness of these individual players, all of whom are striving for a bigger goal than merely receiving individual accolades.

Do you give them a spot next to the guys they probably could be but arent ego driven enough to attempt to do it?

Now this one is tough to answer...

I say these players are just as important as the star players. I still think Dr. J & DWade will be remembered as top 15-20 players of all-time. It's just sad that in a few years time, guys like Manu, Dr. J, etc., won't be remembered by the youth and by casual basketball fans. Eventually hardcore fans will move on, too. That's the world we live in, though. If you're all about the spotlight, you're forever remembered. If you step out of it, your fame dies rapidly.

[dr.hee]

Dwayne Wade.
Yes, DWade. Even though he's averaging 20+ PPG every year, you can already see people are referring to him merely as a sidekick. I don't think he'll get the proper respect he deserves when it's all said and done. People will just give credit to LeBron. And maybe some of it will be accurate (his injuries made him almost a no-show in the 2013 Playoffs/Finals), but you take Wade off this Heat roster and I doubt they appear in 3 straight Finals.

I'd add Chris Bosh. Yeah I know, he's not popular with a lot of people. But still, he's definitely capable of being more than basically a 3rd option. What is his current role? Black Ilgauskas?

[selrahc]

kobe should be added to this list. he probably couldve averaged 50ppg if he didnt pass so much.

[AboutBuckets]

I think Shawn Marion will be remembered for his ring season's rangy defense/rebounding/rounded versatile game rather than the dynamic open court player he was for those 2000's Suns teams.

[iamgine]

Dr J:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=308600

[Rooster]

Lamar Odom. The guy has that superstar game but he is very unselfish to a fault. If he was a little bit assertive, he would have consistent numbers and probably made the All Star team at least once.

[Young X]

What about KG?

[AlphaWolf24]

as far as Dr. J....

I always think of him as the premiere player of the early 80's....I know Magic and Bird changed the game.....but Dr. J was the standard!

He was that player that everyone in the league ( or youngsters on blacktop) wanted to be like.

Even when MJ first came into the league.....you could tell he modeled his game after J...even his off court persona...it was all J......everyone wanted to be Doctor J.



spent everyday after school playing this game at my boys house......Apple 2 E


- I think he gets lost in the sauce now.....mainly because of Basketball's explosion in the 80's....Magic and Bird brought in a whole new fanbase who didn't watch J's whole career.....and then Jordan's era ...MJ overshadowed everyone.

- Dr. J kinda got forgotten about in a way...even if he did try and be more selfish.....I still think he would have been overshadowed a little.

now that I think about it.....He was the apple 2 E....the precedent , the innovator , maybe the funnest machine we ever had.

[I<3NBA]

Bosh.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Thread lacks Worthy.

[inclinerator]

lebron

[fpliii]

People really tend to ignore context when speaking of Dr. J during those first few NBA seasons. Spot on analysis, as always Kblaze.

[SCdac]

Not just Manu, I think both Manu and Parker (talking just Spurs players) would be looked at in different light had their careers/peaks been on their "own team". .... even if they were first round exit teams.

Kinda like Michael Redd had those Bucks, Ben Gordon was the best player on the Bulls for a little while. It's trial and error, but I def think Manu and Parker could have had a team like that some time in 2005-2010. Not a championship team but not horrible.

It's true though, being a role player (or better) on a highly successful team (think Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince) will not exactly engrave you people's memory banks, for whatever reason.

I guess it's because we all regard "lead actor" higher than "supporting actor" when it comes time to start tallying votes.