A sad situation. When being unselfish hurts your standing in history.

[Dr.J4ever]

The "Merged" league was basically taking FOUR ABA teams, and all of the remaining ABA talent, and adding it to the NBA. Again, most all of the best players in the history of the ABA, were back in the NBA by the early 70's. The only players who were not were Dr. J, Gilmore, David Thompson, Dan Issel, and George Gervin (who, like Moses, didn't hit his peak until his NBA years.)

The reality was, the NBA had lost a TON of talent to age and retirement by the mid-70's. Players like Bellamy, Thurmond, West, Oscar, Reed, and Wilt. And without West, Oscar, Reed, and Chamberlain, great teams like the early 70's Bucks, Knicks, and Lakers, were no longer super teams.

But I will agree with you that Dr. J's Nets might have won a title from '74 thru '76. The NBA had taken a nose-dive in that period, and in fact, even with the merger, the league was mired in a slump, until the arrival of Magic and Bird.

From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[Dr.J4ever]

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=Dr.J4ever]From Wikipedia, "the nba-aba rivalry"

"Immediate results of the ABA

[Dr.J4ever]

Again, both Gervin and Moses' careers were in their infancy in their ABA seasons. I don't really count either as ABA 'stars." And out of the rest of those "all-stars", really only Gilmore, Thompson, Issel, and of course Dr. J, were truly impact stars. The bulk of the rest of the ABA players that joined the NBA, were the average, to below-average, players who would have battled the same types from the NBA, for the same positions.

Again, the ABA was on it's last legs by it's last season. Franchises were folding, and as I have mentioned several times, their best players were already playing in the NBA. You have to realize that the '76 ABA started out with only nine teams, and early on, it had already dwindled to seven. So, when the merger added FOUR teams, that meant that there were only about 36 other players that would have been fighting for NBA roster positions. And the bulk of those were below average players.

Yes, the ABA was on it's last legs FINANCIALLY. No doubt.Still, what Wiki says stands.. Not only that, here's more required reading on this weekend

"Legacy

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame member Julius Erving: "In my mind, the NBA has just become a bigger version of the ABA. They play the style of game that we did. They sell their stars like we did. The only difference is that they have more resources and can do it on a much grander scale than we in the ABA ever could."[85]

Denver Nuggets, San Antonio Spurs and Philadelphia 76ers head coach Doug Moe: "One of the biggest disappointments in my life was going into the NBA after the merger. The NBA was a rinky-dink league - listen, I'm very serious about this. The league was run like garbage. There was no camaraderie; a lot of the NBA guys were aloof and thought they were too good to practice or play hard. The NBA All-Star Games were nothing - guys didn't even want to play in them and the fans could [sic] care less about the games. It wasn't until the 1980s, when David Stern became commissioner, that the NBA figured out what the hell they were doing, and what they did was a lot of stuff we had in the ABA - from the 3-point shot to All-Star weekend to the show biz stuff. Now the NBA is like the old ABA. Guys play hard, they show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the ABA might have lost the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball."[86]

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[90]

[LAZERUSS]

Yes, the ABA was on it's last legs FINANCIALLY. No doubt.Still, what Wiki says stands.. Not only that, here's more required reading on this weekend

"Legacy

Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame member Julius Erving: "In my mind, the NBA has just become a bigger version of the ABA. They play the style of game that we did. They sell their stars like we did. The only difference is that they have more resources and can do it on a much grander scale than we in the ABA ever could."[85]

Denver Nuggets, San Antonio Spurs and Philadelphia 76ers head coach Doug Moe: "One of the biggest disappointments in my life was going into the NBA after the merger. The NBA was a rinky-dink league - listen, I'm very serious about this. The league was run like garbage. There was no camaraderie; a lot of the NBA guys were aloof and thought they were too good to practice or play hard. The NBA All-Star Games were nothing - guys didn't even want to play in them and the fans could [sic] care less about the games. It wasn't until the 1980s, when David Stern became commissioner, that the NBA figured out what the hell they were doing, and what they did was a lot of stuff we had in the ABA - from the 3-point shot to All-Star weekend to the show biz stuff. Now the NBA is like the old ABA. Guys play hard, they show their enthusiasm and there is a closeness in the league. Hell, the ABA might have lost the battle, but we won the war. The NBA now plays our kind of basketball."[86]

Sportswriter Bob Ryan: "When writers such as Jim O'Brien and Peter Vescey wrote that the two leagues were very close, that some ABA teams were among the top five of all pro basketball teams, I thought they had no objectivity and that they were too close to the teams they were writing about to really understand pro basketball. Then came the merger, and Denver and San Antonio won division titles. What could I say? Guys like Jim O'Brien were right."[90]

I agree with at least some of the above. The ABA was a more "entertaining" league, and the NBA did go on to adopt some of that culture.

But my main point was that the overwhelming number of the best players in the world were still playing in the NBA before that merger. And it is reflected in the fact that those players that played in both leagues, generally played considerably better in the ABA...and particularly in terms of efficiency. Gilmore had been a dominating center in the ABA. He was "just" among the best in his NBA career (albeit, HIS efficiency shot thru the roof in his NBA career.)

Obviously the ABA added "star power" to the NBA. But, the reality was, had their never been an ABA, the best players that had played in the ABA, most certainly would have been playing in the NBA. The real question was, would they have put up those dominant seasons that they had in the ABA, in the NBA? And again, I don't count Gervin or Moses, since both came into their primes in their NBA careers.

[Dr.J4ever]

I agree with at least some of the above. The ABA was a more "entertaining" league, and the NBA did go on to adopt some of that culture.

But my main point was that the overwhelming number of the best players in the world were still playing in the NBA before that merger. And it is reflected in the fact that those players that played in both leagues, generally played considerably better in the ABA...and particularly in terms of efficiency. Gilmore had been a dominating center in the ABA. He was "just" among the best in his NBA career (albeit, HIS efficiency shot thru the roof in his NBA career.)

Obviously the ABA added "star power" to the NBA. But, the reality was, had their never been an ABA, the best players that had played in the ABA, most certainly would have been playing in the NBA. The real question was, would they have put up those dominant seasons that they had in the ABA, in the NBA? And again, I don't count Gervin or Moses, since both came into their primes in their NBA careers.

I just can't agree with "overwhelming number"..What I quoted in Wiki completely contradicts that. You yourself said that the "3 year window" where ABA title teams could have beaten NBA title teams is really a smoking gun to prove that BY THE TIME BOTH LEAGUES WERE MERGED, there was rough parity between both leagues.

Coincidentally, Doc's best years took place during that 3 year window. Also, the higher numbers put up by ABA stars can just be attributed to style of play and faster paced action in the ABA.

[Dr.J4ever]

The ABA made some solid contributions to NBA basketball. The biggest, of course, being the 3pt shot. But beyond that, the game became more "above-the-rim", and spectacular (not necessarily better, though.)

And Dr. J was clearly ahead of his time. The ESPN generation believes that MJ took the game to another level, but the fact was, Erving was playing like Jordan, long before Michael was.

Magic and Bird rejuvenated a declining sport, though. I still remember the '72 WCF's and Finals being broadcast live on TV. And yet, by the late 70's (and I believe even in Magic's rookie season), the night games were tape-delayed.

And I know I will catch some flak for this, but I really believe that some of that decline was Kareem's fault. When KAJ came into the league he was seen as the next GOAT. And, in fact, in his first three seasons he was well on his way to establishing himself as THE GOAT. But, beginning with his '72 post-season, his career slowly declined each year. He seemed to lose motivation, and seldom put up the huge games that he had early in his career. In fact, it got so bad, that even the movie "Airplane" took a shot at his "laziness."

Maybe so. David Stern did mention about the perceived notion at the time that the NBA was "too black" , or "ghetto", or problems with drugs. Bird, a literal "white knight", and Magic who played with enthusiasm and effort saved the day. A lot of hype placed on this rivalry for obvious business reasons.

[IncarceratedBob]

Cant believe people mention Bosh

He's garbage and shouldn't be remembered throughout history

[elementally morale]

I nominate Joe Dumars and Toni Kukoc.

[Gotterdammerung]

I kinda disagree with your assessment of Dr J. Other than his first season in the NBA, he only really gave up about 1-2 shots compared to his ABA years. That's perfectly reasonable. You have to take into account that he's playing much less minutes in the NBA.

Also, he's shooting less but his efficiency doesn't improve. Plus all his stats dropped when he got to the NBA. That indicates that he does fell off, if only by a little bit.

Julius Erving had tendinitis in both knees once he got to the NBA in 1976, and didn't really recover until 1979.

[Miller for 3]

Wade and Bosh. Two top 5 players who could have 3 rings now (instead only have .15) but their stats and ring count is low because they play with a huge ballhog that only beat one 50 win team in the PS before joining the super stacked Heat

Kobe - Let Shaq pretend to be the alpha dog, when in truth it was Kobe. We saw how much Kobe carried him, as Shaq won only 1 asterick rings despite playing with Penny, 3D, Wade, Payton, Malone, Walker, Nash, STAT, Marion, Lebron, Jamison, Williams, Rondo, KG, Pierce, and Garnett.

Then he put his 40ppg scoring to rest and let Pau/Odom feel important by letting them score a few baskets each game while he carried them to two ships

Durant- Could average 45-50ppg but lets Ibaka and Chuckbrook chuck up terrible shots each game just so his beloved idiot coach won't get fired. And of course, he plays with the worst starter in the league, Perkins (worth -10 wins alone)

[La Frescobaldi]

Sam Jones & John Havlicek live submerged by Bill Russell mythology which is totally unfair. Havlicek got a lot more credit for his work in the '70s but Sam is totally forgot. That guy was the real deal, the truest superstar level player who gave all that up to win.

Another guy who gets criminally underrated is Bill Walton. Lot of this thread talking about the late '70s being a lower level quality NBA league it just isn't true.
Sure the league got weakened bad by a bunch of bench-level-at-best players from the ABA showing up, such as whole entire doormat teams called Nets and Pacers (we are talking start-up Grizzlies/Raptors level), and the media PR was bad at that time too. But the NBA was still very high level in the late '70s, and Walton is one huge reason why that fact is true. Always a team player, who could completely take over games. Look how he destroyed Kareem in his MVP level days and later on again (admittedly aged but so was Walton, with his legs) with great ease in '86 Finals.

Somebody else talked about Pippen and yes that is a fact right there. Pip was incredible. Lots of guys at his level of talent would have gave Michael Jordan a swirly flush in the locker room for pulling the stuff he did but Pippen did the opposite, kept the team mentality smooth and the wins streaming in.

[97 bulls]

I feel Pippen gets slighted. Give him ten years of having the best team built around his skillset and hed would've been a perennial MVP and DPOY candidate.

That 94 Bulls team wouldve won the championship had they aquired a decent SG to replace Jordan.

[ImKobe]

Kobe from 2000-2002