A sad situation. When being unselfish hurts your standing in history.

[LAZERUSS]

Good, very good post. All true, especially on Earl The Pearl.


Monroe scores 24.3, 25.8, 23.4 and 21.4 ppg in his first 4 years in the League, including 22.1 ppg in 70-71 playoffs when he plays in the Finals with the Bullets. Then he won a title with the Knicks in 73 scoring just 14-15 points x game and nobody cares about him. Very sad.

And i always think about that 69-70 season for Wilt, when he broke his knee...
With the Lakers coach asking him to score again in big numbers, he was averaging 32.2 ppg, then his knee left him. Damn, im sure it would be one of his greatest season ever!

I don't know if it would have been Wilt's greatest season ever, but it is often overlooked in his career. Few here know that Wilt's new coach, Joe Mullaney, who had replaced the incompetent Butch Van Breda Kolf, came to Wilt before the season started, and asked him to become the focal point of the offense again.

And while it was only nine games in, when Chamberlain shredded his knee, the fact was, he was leading the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg, grabbing 20 rpg, and shooting .579 from the floor. Interesting too, that teammate Jerry West who was averaging 30.8 ppg when Wilt went down, wound up leading the league in scoring at 31.2 ppg. So, LA likely could have had two 30+ ppg scorers that year.

And Wilt's numbers weren't skewed by one big game in those nine contests, either. He had games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points, and in another, dominated rookie Kareem with a 25-20-5-3 game on 9-14 shooting from the floor. In fact, in the game in which he blew out his knee, he had scored 33 points on 13-14 shooting.

In any case, this could have been Wilt's eighth scoring title, and given the fact that Elvin Hayes would lead the league in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg, and Johnny Green would lead the league in FG% at .559, Chamberlain likely would have won his 12th rebounding title, and his tenth FG% title.

Of course, Chamberlain is not only the only player to ever lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in the same season, but he did it three times. This could have been his 4th.

[LAZERUSS]

V3.

Wilt on the Lakers.

By all accounts Wilt was doing exactly what he was asked to do. He didnt turn his teammates into spectators by shooting a lot. He didnt statpad assists at the expense of making his own easy baskets. He just played all out help defense, made his man play honest to keep driving lanes open, would fling outlet passes 60 feet to start the break, he set epic picks to free up West and Goodrich, and he scored when asked or when he got the rebound right next to the basket.

So his team played amazing ball at one point not losing for 3 months and won the title and made a few other finals 2 of which were within a single play of going his way.


And now he gets hated on for not scoring more in his winning days...when he proved he could. He dropped 66 points on I think 29-35 shooting vs the Suns when SI ran an article questioning if he still could. This guy...who could probably still drop 40 a game....decided...to let his teammates shine, pass the ball, rebound, block shots, and let the non informed believe he was washed up. While his great rival Bill Russell(a commentator for CBS at the time) praised him for playing the role he himself played for the Celtics...but being better than him at it.

And 40 years later his PPG gets laughed at.

The stupidity level on this forum amazes me.

Wilt gets bashed for scoring 30 ppg (with 31 rpg, and on a .555 FG%...and a .560 true TS%), while taking a cast of clowns to a game seven, one point loss, against the greatest dynasty in NBA history (and against the greatest defensive player in NBA history)...

and then gets reamed because he "only" puts up a 19 ppg, 23.2 rpg, .600 FG% Finals...which included a clinching game performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 8 blocks...

because his teammates "carried" him.

[Gifted Mind]

This thread is a disgrace without the mention of John Havlicek

[hateraid]

1.

Doctor J....widely considered the best basketball player in the world when he was in the ABA. He comes to the NBA to join a team of...lets be real...asshole ballhogs. Hes playing with World B Free(an upcoming feature in my "**** it" players series), George Mcginnis(who missed the shot to tie game 6 of the 77 finals when he insisted he could beat his man), Darryl Dawkins who just wanted to show off, Doug Collins who was good but a scorer first and second, and even Kobes dad who ive heard was a bit of a ball stopper. Does he come in and insist on being the focal point and getting shots like in the ABA? No. He took 25 shots a game some years in the ABA. He took almost 1900 shots last season in the ABA. Dropped to 1300 in the NBA. The best attacker the world had ever seen gave up 500 shots to play his part and not rock the boat. And it worked. Not as well as him taking over perhaps...as they didnt win in his first few years. But they contended from day one. Make the finals and lose....while Doc decides to push his scoring back into the upper 30s. But he didnt really do it that often. He didnt want to tell these guys "Im Doctor ****ing J!" but nobody in the world could really stop him and every player you ask from the time knew it.

The only 2 season he got to 19 shots a game in the NBA....he won the MVP one year and finished second to Kareem the other. But Doc kept right along playing nice. Made 4 finals and did win a ring. But a meaner less teammate friendly Doctor J may have led a dynasty in philly.

And worse....he really tainted his legacy(a word ive come to hate) by giving off the impression that he was anything less than a monster in the NBA. People see his NBA numbers decline from the ABA and act like he just fell off playing the big boys. Myself sadly among them when I was younger.

But Doctor J was looked at with awe even by other all time greats. But he didnt take shine from his teammates. He let Toney shine...George...Moses...Collins...Dawkins...World B. Free, Cheeks, Jones, and later Barkley.

He didnt hurt anyones feelings nobody ever had a bad word to say about him and he falls from "A lot of people think hes the best player they ever saw" to getting laughs when someone ranks him top 10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADC0ltClxWQ

Look around the 3 minute mark in there. That is how the world saw Doc when he retired. The opposing teams fans give him a standing ovation and the commentator compares him not to Wilt or Oscar or Magic...

He ranks him next to Jesse Owens and Joe Dimaggio. But you look at where hes ranked now...those 20-22ppg seasons and playing nice as his teammates shot them out of games get him knocked way down.

To the people who tell others that if they don't think Jordan is the GOAT then they were to young to watch him play. My dad thinks Dr.J was better. Those who think otherwise were too young to see him play

[bdreason]

I don't buy the Wilt example. His team was worse when he was scoring 40+ ppg. It's not surprising he won his first title when he tried to lead the league in APG, and his second title when he focused on team offense and defense. I think the real question with Wilt should be, if he hadn't been a selfish stat whore the majority of his career, could he have won more than just 2 titles?

[Kblaze8855]

Considering that he always did exactly what he was told....score the most ever....pass more than anyone as good as he was likely would....or stop shooting and defend and rebound...

Isnt is more an issue of if his early coaches knew how to best use him?

He didnt play himself 48.5 minutes a season and say he wanted 50ppg. his coach played him and told him to do it.

What is he supposed to do? Say **** off?

He scored his ass off, passed his ass off, and then did nothing but block shots, rebound, set picks, dunk gimme baskets, and fire outlet passes.

Whatever he was told to do he did. Better than anyone.

Its his fault he wasnt always asked to do the same thing every year?

[LAZERUSS]

I don't buy the Wilt example. His team was worse when he was scoring 40+ ppg. It's not surprising he won his first title when he tried to lead the league in APG, and his second title when he focused on team offense and defense. I think the real question with Wilt should be, if he hadn't been a selfish stat whore the majority of his career, could he have won more than just 2 titles?

Wilt came to a LAST PLACE team in his rookie season. They IMMEDIATELY jumped to a 49-26 record.

In Wilt's 61-62 post-season, he took essentially the same core of that last place team, single-handedly thru the first round of the playoffs, and then to a game seven, two point loss to a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team. Oh, and BTW, his teammates collectively shot .354 from the floor in that post-season. How do explain that?

Or Chamberlain taking a laughingstock roster in 63-64, with his second best player being Tom Meschery, to a 48-32 record, and then single-handedly carrying them past a Hawks team that was WAY better players 2-5 in the first round of the playoffs. And while his team lost to Boston in Finals, 4-1, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds. Oh, and BTW, the Celtics enjoyed an 8-2 edge in HOFers (and Wilt's lone HOF teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who played part-time, and out of his natural position, and shot poorly in doing so.)

Or Wilt being traded midway thru the 64-65 season, for three players, to a Sixers team that had gone 34-46 the year before, and failed to make the playoffs. And then single-handedly leading that 40-40 team to a first round romp over the loaded 48-32 Royals, and then to a game seven, one point loss to a 62-18 Celtic team that was at the height of it's dynasty. Oh, and with a 30 ppg 31 rpg, .555 FG% (.560 true TS%) series.

Or that the Warrior team he left would move Thurmond to the center spot, where he would go on to have a HOF career, and draft HOFer Rick Barry, and still could only go 35-45. Or that they would add players like Cyle Lee and Jeff Mullins to that roster, and that Meschery would now be their seventh best player, and in a year in which Thurmond averaged a 19-21, and Barry led the NBA in scoring at 35.6 ppg...they could still only go 44-37...or considerably worse than Wilt's last season there (and Chamberlain's 64 roster had nowhere near the talent that that 66-67 Warrior team had.)

Or that Wilt would lead the league in scoring, rebounding, and FG% in his 65-66 season, and also lead his team to the best record in the league. And during the regular season, in nine h2h's with Boston, averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and shot .525 from the field...and his Sixers had a 6-3 record against the Celtics. And then in their '66 EDF's, Chamberlain averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 from the field...or nearly identical to what he did to them in the regular season...and yet his TEAM lost to the Celtics, 4-1. How come you ask? His teammates shot an overall .352 in that series. Now, how can you possibly blame Chamberlain for that?

[pudman13]

This thread is a disgrace without the mention of John Havlicek

That's a good point. When the Celtics were good his numbers were modest. When they were not and he had to carry the team, he averaged 28.9 PPG, 9.0 RPG and 7.5 APG, then 27.5, 8.2 and 7.5, averaging more than 45 minutes per game both seasons. In their championship seasons (including '74 and '76) he shared the glory.

[ProfessorMurder]

That's a good point. When the Celtics were good his numbers were modest. When they were not and he had to carry the team, he averaged 28.9 PPG, 9.0 RPG and 7.5 APG, then 27.5, 8.2 and 7.5, averaging more than 45 minutes per game both seasons. In their championship seasons (including '74 and '76) he shared the glory.

Bonkers numbers.

[Kblaze8855]

I saw some posts in another topic on DR.Js PER and was reminded of this. Dr.J had he chosen to do so...with all the running teams did back then...I bet he could have been a 34/9/6 player and be much more respected. Nobody could guard him. Bobby Jones 9-10 times all D first team mostly off man to man D...Doc hands him what....63 once? 35-40 a game in the finals?

I wish he unleashed that more often.

[Smoke117]

You could add Scottie Pippen to this list too. An unselfish player who put aside statistics to win championships and play team ball. Even when Jordan retired in the 94 season he only averaged 17.8 shots a game. He was such a great team player and one of those rare guys who made his teammates better because he never cared about taking 20+ shots even when Jordan was gone and the Bulls were his. The Bulls were so good in 94 for exactly that reason...that 94 Bulls team played some of the greatest most unselfish team ball ever. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong basically had career years and made the all star team (which frankly BJ never should have lol) because the Bulls played some of the best team ball I've ever seen led by Scottie. They won 2 less games than the 93 season and likely had a chance at winning 60 and definitely more than the 93 team if Scottie didn't miss those 10 games which they wemy 4-6 and Grant himself the 2nd best player player on that 94 season didn't miss 12 games. In the 1993 season with Jordan, Pippen played 81 games, Jordan 78, and Grant 77. They won 2 more games when all three of their best players played almost every single game and won two less when Pippen missed 10 games (and they went 4-6 like i said) and Grant their 2nd best player missed 12 games himself. if Scottie payed 81 games and Grant 77 a 60 win season wasn't out of the picture. To this day i've never seen a team play such great team ball. They barely lost a step when Jordan left because of Pippen who was the consumate team player. He made everyone around him better while being the best scorer, by far the best defensive player, the best play maker/passer and was attacking the boards averaging 8.7rpg 2nd to Grant. He basically did everything for the team while being the ultimate unselfish team player.

[iamgine]

I saw some posts in another topic on DR.Js PER and was reminded of this. Dr.J had he chosen to do so...with all the running teams did back then...I bet he could have been a 34/9/6 player and be much more respected. Nobody could guard him. Bobby Jones 9-10 times all D first team mostly off man to man D...Doc hands him what....63 once? 35-40 a game in the finals?

I wish he unleashed that more often.

Meh, Mcadoo isn't really respected either despite having the numbers.

I kinda disagree with your assessment of Dr J. Other than his first season in the NBA, he only really gave up about 1-2 shots compared to his ABA years. That's perfectly reasonable. You have to take into account that he's playing much less minutes in the NBA.

Also, he's shooting less but his efficiency doesn't improve. Plus all his stats dropped when he got to the NBA. That indicates that he does fell off, if only by a little bit.

Of course, had Moses went to town a little sooner, we'd put Dr J up there with Bird/Magic.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

You could add Scottie Pippen to this list too. An unselfish player who put aside statistics to win championships and play team ball. Even when Jordan retired in the 94 season he only averaged 17.8 shots a game. He was such a great team player and one of those rare guys who made his teammates better because he never cared about taking 20+ shots even when Jordan was gone and the Bulls were his. The Bulls were so good in 94 for exactly that reason...that 94 Bulls team played some of the greatest most unselfish team ball ever. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong basically had career years and made the all star team (which frankly BJ never should have lol) because the Bulls played some of the best team ball I've ever seen led by Scottie. They won 2 less games than the 93 season and likely had a chance at winning 60 and definitely more than the 93 team if Scottie didn't miss those 10 games which they wemy 4-6 and Grant himself the 2nd best player player on that 94 season didn't miss 12 games. In the 1993 season with Jordan, Pippen played 81 games, Jordan 78, and Grant 77. They won 2 more games when all three of their best players played almost every single game and won two less when Pippen missed 10 games (and they went 4-6 like i said) and Grant their 2nd best player missed 12 games himself. if Scottie payed 81 games and Grant 77 a 60 win season wasn't out of the picture. To this day i've never seen a team play such great team ball. They barely lost a step when Jordan left because of Pippen who was the consumate team player. He made everyone around him better while being the best scorer, by far the best defensive player, the best play maker/passer and was attacking the boards averaging 8.7rpg 2nd to Grant. He basically did everything for the team while being the ultimate unselfish team player.

Knowledgable basketball fans know that pippen was just as important to these teams or more important than MJ.
they replaced MJ and they only lose two more games... why?? Scottie Pippen.
ultimate Team player and winning player. could do everything, could drop 30-40 if needed, could dish 12 assists, could get 10 boards, could defend just about everyone.
the real star of the bulls dynasty

[SHAQisGOAT]

The guy who comes to my mind is Dr. J's teammate, Bobby Jones, who accepted a role as a 6th man (for several years) to help his team win even though he had all-star ability as a starter (stlil has one of the greatest FG% of all time, yet was known primarily as a defensive player.) The guy was amazing--could defend anyone, could defend anybody, dunked almost as stunningly as J, but did it all with a lack of attitude and without any ego. The guy is almost completely forgotten today.

[Reggie43]

Jeff Hornaceck for me never got his due because of playing with alltime greats Stockton and Malone.