Comparing the 5 Greatest Centers Ever

[SamuraiSWISH]

Strongly disagree on all counts, especially the bolded. To each his own I guess though.

Nique was an alpha caliber player, Pippen is made to be a supporting player.

[fpliii]

Nique was an alpha caliber player, Pippen is made to be a supporting player.

So what? Havlicek, Garnett, Robinson, and a few others were made to be supporting stars as well. I'd take them all over Nique too.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So what? Havlicek, Garnett, Robinson, and a few others were made to be supporting stars as well. I'd take them all over Nique too.

No, I think Garnett and David Robinson were very much alpha caliber players. They just had shit supporting pieces for way too long. Can't comment on Havlicek as I didn't see him play. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none on offense. A do it all on defense. But he needs a better scorer than him to win games. D-Rob and Garnett could both put up 25 ppg + and create shots for themselves and other better than Pippen could.

I should know, I watched Pip's entire career. Guy is a glorified sidekick. A fantastic complimentary piece, but a side piece none the less. Same goes for Pau Gasol. These guy's get overrated by people with an agenda. Nique's best teammates were young Kevin Willis, Stacey Augmon, and defensive beast Mookie Blaylock. No one to suppliment him in the low 20 ppg caliber player the way Pippen and Gasol were.

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol, who's we? Nobody has gone over it - and you don't want anybody to either, because your wrong. Your still making broad sweeping generalizations that you personally know are slight of hand and misleading. It isn't even accurate to do a "1960-66 vs 1960-66 playoffs/reg season" His roles changed disproportionately reg season vs playoffs, even within that time frame. For example the 1964 season he played as a playmaker under Alex Hannum, and they made the Finals that season. Where as 1963 his team didn't even make the playoffs and he averaged 45ppg in the regular season. The fact that that monster statistical season is left out of his playoff stats, yet in 1964 he drastically cuts back on scoring and plays more playoff games that season than any other within that time frame is the kind of thing you wish for nobody to notice or discuss.

Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.

[fpliii]

No, I think Garnett and David Robinson were very much alpha caliber players. They just had shit supporting pieces for way too long. Can't comment on Havlicek as I didn't see him play. Pippen is a jack of all trades, master of none on offense. A do it all on defense. But he needs a better scorer than him to win games. D-Rob and Garnett could both put up 25 ppg + and create shots for themselves and other better than Pippen could.

I should know, I watched Pip's entire career. Guy is a glorified sidekick. A fantastic complimentary piece, but a side piece none the less. Same goes for Pau Gasol. These guy's get overrated by people with an agenda. Nique's best teammates were young Kevin Willis, Stacey Augmon, and defensive beast Mookie Blaylock. No one to suppliment him in the low 20 ppg caliber player the way Pippen and Gasol were.

Maybe it's just because I weight offense/defense equally. Also, Robinson/KG could put up points, but you likely couldn't win with them as your first option on offense (unless a lot of other things go your way), since neither guy lived in the post and relied too much on his jumpshot. Both are top 10, maybe top 10 defenders all-time though.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.

Great, now you've cherry picked Wilt's season with the biggest point disparity playoffs to regular season - which no other season even resembles. Of course, your right, his playoff numbers did drop a lot that specific season coming into the playoffs, after all he was facing the Celtics - the #1 defensive team in the league (which held him to 40ppg the regular season that year), throughout the majority of those playoffs. Now go ahead and do every single one of his other playoff seasons, on an individual basis with the regular season stats of ONLY those playoff seasons, and your comparisons will begin to look fair and ubias. You wouldn't want to do that though, I know your mission is to only show Wilt at his worst, and never reveal the whole truth. You only want to make unfavorable comparisons, minus those pesky facts that offer context.

[Electric Slide]

All are still better than Kobe

[fpliii]

130 possessions is the absolute minumum these 60s teams were running. It's common knowledge the Celtics had the highest pace among all teams. Either way the figure doesn't need to be exact to get the point across. Wilt and Russells statistics are overblown from playing in an era with much greater pace.

Stats are secondary as well. You should always watch the players first. And after watching some Wilt/Russell footage and then comparing it to 2000 Shaq footage I don't see how anyone who isn't retarded can come to the conclusion that Wilt/Russell are better.

Well, 120s and a couple of teams in 61, 62, 63 were near that 130 point. I agree that the rebounding numbers are high, but they're inarguably top 5 rebounders ever (I have them as the top 2, but it's up to you).

Anyhow, Shaq's my favorite player all-time but I can't put him above either guy. I think at his best he's at or above their level if you purely transplant Russ/Wilt without even an offseason to adjust, but I can't go beyond that.

Anyhow I don't want to get much more into this, just wanted to correct the pauk numbers. We see eye-to-eye on a lot but we'll have to agree to disagree here.

[LAZERUSS]

Wow I just debunked your myth and you come with this? Ok, how about we look at 61-62, when he averaged 50 per game in the regular season. What did he do in the postseason? 35 ppg, a 15 ppg drop. Including 22 points in a game 7 loss. And I know he took less shots, but even with the reduced volume, his efficiency dropped too, from 54% TS to 51% TS.

Here was the reality of that '62 post-season.

First of all, Chamberlain did not average 50 ppg against Boston in his regular season h2h's with Russell. He averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%. In a regular season NBA that averaged 118.8 ppg on an eFG% of .426.

In the 61-62 EDF's, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%. In a post-season NBA that averaged 112.6 ppg on an eFG% of .411.

So, yes, Wilt's numbers declined...SLIGHTLY.

Furthermore, Wilt's true TS% in that series (and this does not account for 3-to-make-2's, or 2-to-make-1's)...was .513. BTW, Russell's was .451. The post-season NBA that year? .462. Here again, and as always...Chamberlain's TS% was considerably higher than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE...AND, as almost always...his opposing center shot LOWER than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Since Russell and Chamberlain retired at an earlier age and didn't stick around past age 35, lets look at Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq's stats before they declined steeply. Shaq and Hakeem's Finals stats stay the same since they were all played while they were still young.

1970-1986 Kareem
Regular Season: 26.3 PPG, 16.2 TRB%, 15.2 AST%, 59.5 TS%
Playoffs: 27.3 PPG, 15.3 TRB%, 14.3 AST%, 57.7 TS%
Finals: 26.8 PPG, 57.1 TS%

1993-2006 Shaq
Regular Season: 26.3 PPG, 18.0 TRB%, 14.8 AST%, 58.4 TS%
Playoffs: 25.6 PPG, 18.1 TRB%, 15.1 AST%, 56.7 TS%

1985-1997 Hakeem
Regular Season: 24.2 PPG, 17.5 TRB%, 12.4 AST%, 55.8 TS%
Playoffs: 27.3 PPG, 16.1 TRB%, 16.1 TRB%, 57.5 TS%

[Deuce Bigalow]

Here was the reality of that '62 post-season.

First of all, Chamberlain did not average 50 ppg against Boston in his regular season h2h's with Russell. He averaged 39.7 ppg on a .471 FG%. In a regular season NBA that averaged 118.8 ppg on an eFG% of .426.

In the 61-62 EDF's, he averaged 33.6 ppg on a .468 FG%. In a post-season NBA that averaged 112.6 ppg on an eFG% of .411.

So, yes, Wilt's numbers declined...SLIGHTLY.

Furthermore, Wilt's true TS% in that series (and this does not account for 3-to-make-2's, or 2-to-make-1's)...was .513. BTW, Russell's was .451. The post-season NBA that year? .462. Here again, and as always...Chamberlain's TS% was considerably higher than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE...AND, as almost always...his opposing center shot LOWER than the post-season LEAGUE AVERAGE.

6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

[Deuce Bigalow]

Great, now you've cherry picked Wilt's season with the biggest point disparity playoffs to regular season - which no other season even resembles. Of course, your right, his playoff numbers did drop a lot that specific season coming into the playoffs, after all he was facing the Celtics - the #1 defensive team in the league (which held him to 40ppg the regular season that year), throughout the majority of those playoffs. Now go ahead and do every single one of his other playoff seasons, on an individual basis with the regular season stats of ONLY those playoff seasons, and your comparisons will begin to look fair and ubias. You wouldn't want to do that though, I know your mission is to only show Wilt at his worst, and never reveal the whole truth. You only want to make unfavorable comparisons, minus those pesky facts that offer context.

Okay, I will do that. Then after I do it will you admit that Wilt declined? Or you'll make up another excuse?

[LAZERUSS]

6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

Give me a list of centers who averaged a 33.6 ppg, 26.9 rpg, with a TS% of +5.0% over the league average, and who held their opposing center to a TS% of -1.0% under the league average.

That was a "declining" Wilt.

BTW, how about Chamberlain in his '65 EDF's against Russell? 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, a .555 FG% (in a post-season NBA that had an eFG% of .429), and a true TS% of .560, in a post-season NBA that had a TS% of .478. Oh, and Russell's TS%? .450. So, again, Chamberlain was +8.2% above the LEAGUE AVERAGE (and scoring 30 ppg in the process), and he held his opposing center to -2.8% BELOW the league average. Just incredible!

[Marchesk]

6.1 PPG drop is "slightly"? Again, nearly indentical to his career PPG drop of 7.6

But why was that? In the 15 point drop where he went from 50 ppg to 35, he was taking 11 less shots in the playoffs. Was that a deliberate strategy? Someone posted in the other thread that McGuire had Wilt moved to the high post before the Boston series.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, had Shaq taken 29 FGAs per game against Hakeem in the '95 Finals, like Hakeem did, instead of the 19 he did average...he likely would have averaged 40 ppg in that series.