Prime Ray Allen vs James Harden

[TheBigVeto]

Ray.

[bizil]

Right now gotta roll with a peak Ray Ray over what Harden bring to the table now. But I don't think the gap is a huge one in terms of their skills. A peak Ray Allen right now would be the THE BEST SG in the L starting the season. With Kobe out and D-Wade with shit to prove somewhat, I think peak Ray would be the best SG starting the season.

It's just that Ray was in the all time best era for SG's EVER! U had Kobe, Wade, AI, T-Mac, Ray, Vince, Ginobli, and even Pierce who played SG very often back then. U got seven guys who will be in the HOF and T-Mac even has an outside shot at HOF as well. That's unheard of depth at pretty much ANY position for an era. So Ray was a great one amongst many greats at SG at the same time.

But don't get it twisted, Harden is a beast. Who could likely be just as good as peak Ray. But will he have the career that Ray had? Ray survived the Golden Era of SG's and became a top ten GOAT SG ever. So for Harden to eclipse Ray ultimately, he's gotta be at a top 10 GOAT level both talent AND accolades, longevity, and numbers wise.

[FatComputerNerd]

Jerry West says hello

I wouldn't consider West a prototypical 2-guard. Amazing player obviously, and definitely a better overall player, with far more career accolades than Ray, but he was only 6'2 and played at both guard spots. You could even call him one of the original combo-guards.

Ray at 6'5-6'6 fit the mold of prototypical 2-guard more.

[noob cake]

James Harden just turned 24 over the summer. Let us compare the two players at age 23, i.e. Harden's last season.

Allen/Harden at 23
PER: 18.9/23.0
TS: 56.4/%/60.0%
TRB%: 10.7/7.2%
AST%: 18.8/25.7%
STL%: 1.7/2.5%
BLK: 0.5/1.0%
WS/48: 0.146/0.206
PPG: 17.9/24.4
APG: 3.6/5.5
RPG: 4.2/4.6

Harden hasn't reached his prime yet, but at the same age: Harden shits on Allen in just about every way.

[Boston C's]

James Harden just turned 24 over the summer. Let us compare the two players at age 23, i.e. Harden's last season.

Allen/Harden at 23
PER: 18.9/23.0
TS: 56.4/%/60.0%
TRB%: 10.7/7.2%
AST%: 18.8/25.7%
STL%: 1.7/2.5%
BLK: 0.5/1.0%
WS/48: 0.146/0.206
PPG: 17.9/24.4
APG: 3.6/5.5
RPG: 4.2/4.6

Harden hasn't reached his prime yet, but at the same age: Harden shits on Allen in just about every way.

The question isn't comparing them at 23...if that were the case then there would be no discussion

[Boston C's]

No they see him as playing off the ball. Running off of screens is not spot up shooting. The main thing a prime Ray has over the current Harden is that he was a much more effective half court player offensively since he actually made mid range shots.

Harden also plays in the post rule change era where it's easier for guards to get to the line and score in general. Ray Allen was at his best in 2001 I'd say. He should have shot more during his Buck tenure. He was too unselfish on the Bucks in those early 2000's.

you really think ray in 01 was the best ray allen? I agree if ray got the green light in milwaukee he would have lit it up to the tune of at least 24 ppg the fact that he had to share shots with big dog (who was kind of a chucker) and sam I am was definitely huge but I thought when he first came to seattle he still had his athleticism and that his game was more well rounded...when he first came to seattle and was running the show he averaged 25,6,6 for the last 30 plus games of the season

[Boston C's]

Right now gotta roll with a peak Ray Ray over what Harden bring to the table now. But I don't think the gap is a huge one in terms of their skills. A peak Ray Allen right now would be the THE BEST SG in the L starting the season. With Kobe out and D-Wade with shit to prove somewhat, I think peak Ray would be the best SG starting the season.

It's just that Ray was in the all time best era for SG's EVER! U had Kobe, Wade, AI, T-Mac, Ray, Vince, Ginobli, and even Pierce who played SG very often back then. U got seven guys who will be in the HOF and T-Mac even has an outside shot at HOF as well. That's unheard of depth at pretty much ANY position for an era. So Ray was a great one amongst many greats at SG at the same time.

But don't get it twisted, Harden is a beast. Who could likely be just as good as peak Ray. But will he have the career that Ray had? Ray survived the Golden Era of SG's and became a top ten GOAT SG ever. So for Harden to eclipse Ray ultimately, he's gotta be at a top 10 GOAT level both talent AND accolades, longevity, and numbers wise.

perfect answer.. only disagreement was that yes pierce played SG but he was mainly a SF and tmac by the mid 2000s was a SF player

but yea ray definitely played in the golden era of swingmen and any of those guys would be the best SG in the league today in their prime

[bizil]

perfect answer.. only disagreement was that yes pierce played SG but he was mainly a SF and tmac by the mid 2000s was a SF player

but yea ray definitely played in the golden era of swingmen and any of those guys would be the best SG in the league today in their prime

No doubt Pierce will go down as a HOF SF. But for 4 seasons in that Golden Era 2000s, Pierce was listed as an SG. Who of course played SF like many swingmen do. But T-Mac will go down historically as a SG in my opinion ultimately. And most of the years T-Mac played PERIOD, he was listed as an SG. Sites such as Basketball reference points these things out. But other than Ray and AI, most of those guys fufilled plenty of swingman style stuff at one point or another. Basically, I was just pointing out the HOF depth that the SG spot had in that 9-10 year stretch.

[Mr Exlax]

Ray all day. The only thing I disagree with is what James Harden had to do for us to make the playoffs with a brand new team full of brand new players. I don't think Ray Ray ever had to do that.

[Smoke117]

you really think ray in 01 was the best ray allen? I agree if ray got the green light in milwaukee he would have lit it up to the tune of at least 24 ppg the fact that he had to share shots with big dog (who was kind of a chucker) and sam I am was definitely huge but I thought when he first came to seattle he still had his athleticism and that his game was more well rounded...when he first came to seattle and was running the show he averaged 25,6,6 for the last 30 plus games of the season

Yes. Most people probably don't remember how great he was in the playoffs that year, but he averaged: 25.1ppg 6.0apg 4.1rpg 1.3spg .477%fg .479%3pt (and that's through 18 games on 6.6 attempts) .920%ft. The thing is, is as you said...Robinson was a chucker. In that 2001 season they both averaged 22ppg, but Ray did it on 16fga's, while Robinson did it on 19.2. Ray had a .612ts% to Robinson's .523%. What the hell was he doing taking more shots than Allen. Ray just never asserted himself enough on the Bucks. He should have been averaging 24-25ppg.

It's hard for me to say a Sonics Ray Allen is better when he was at his peak as far as athleticism on the Bucks (for the most part) and was just as money with his jump shot then as he was on the Sonics. Who knows though, Rays efficiency drops (though it's always at least good because his 3pt% and ft% are always high) on the Sonics since they had nobody else to score but him or Lewis, so the focus was always on him. He did have that great playoff run in 2005 though.

[Boston C's]

No doubt Pierce will go down as a HOF SF. But for 4 seasons in that Golden Era 2000s, Pierce was listed as an SG. Who of course played SF like many swingmen do. But T-Mac will go down historically as a SG in my opinion ultimately. And most of the years T-Mac played PERIOD, he was listed as an SG. Sites such as Basketball reference points these things out. But other than Ray and AI, most of those guys fufilled plenty of swingman style stuff at one point or another. Basically, I was just pointing out the HOF depth that the SG spot had in that 9-10 year stretch.

I always kind of forget pierce played a few full seasons at the SG lol but yea I know what your sayin for sure

[Boston C's]

Yes. Most people probably don't remember how great he was in the playoffs that year, but he averaged: 25.1ppg 6.0apg 4.1rpg 1.3spg .477%fg .479%3pt (and that's through 18 games on 6.6 attempts) .920%ft. The thing is, is as you said...Robinson was a chucker. In that 2001 season they both averaged 22ppg, but Ray did it on 16fga's, while Robinson did it on 19.2. Ray had a .612ts% to Robinson's .523%. What the hell was he doing taking more shots than Allen. Ray just never asserted himself enough on the Bucks. He should have been averaging 24-25ppg.

It's hard for me to say a Sonics Ray Allen is better when he was at his peak as far as athleticism on the Bucks (for the most part) and was just as money with his jump shot then as he was on the Sonics. Who knows though, Rays efficiency drops (though it's always at least good because his 3pt% and ft% are always high) on the Sonics since they had nobody else to score but him or Lewis, so the focus was always on him. He did have that great playoff run in 2005 though.

I never knew why robinson shot as much as he did it just baffled me...everyone knew by that point ray was the guy that made the bucks go but yet he continued to chuck lol...robinson was good but at that point it was clear as day that ray was the best player...it irritates me sometimes when ppl say that its questionable if ray was the bucks best player on the team

Im biased when it comes to sonics ray allen a bit because the sonics were my favorite team lol but yea like you said there wasn't much around him in seattle...I always found his playoff run in 05 to be as impressive as his 01 run given the injury circumstances and lack of talent around him

[Sharmer]

They are different types of players, one being a high volume scorer the other a high efficiency shooter when in his prime could score from any where on the court.

I pick Ray but if Harden gets a license to chuck, he's pure scoring numbers will convince a lot that he's better.

[Boston C's]

They are different types of players, one being a high volume scorer the other a high efficiency shooter when in his prime could score from any where on the court.

I pick Ray but if Harden gets a license to chuck, he's pure scoring numbers will convince a lot that he's better.

If ray was a chucker he'd probably be a 28 ppg type player in his prime and if he handled the rock as much as harden he'd average more assists (see seattle days when he got traded to seattle he averaged 6 apg through 30 plus games)

[Reggie43]

I never knew why robinson shot as much as he did it just baffled me...everyone knew by that point ray was the guy that made the bucks go but yet he continued to chuck lol...robinson was good but at that point it was clear as day that ray was the best player...it irritates me sometimes when ppl say that its questionable if ray was the bucks best player on the team

Im biased when it comes to sonics ray allen a bit because the sonics were my favorite team lol but yea like you said there wasn't much around him in seattle...I always found his playoff run in 05 to be as impressive as his 01 run given the injury circumstances and lack of talent around him

Its funny how you claim that Robinson was a chucker when in reality in the six seasons he played with Ray, Big Dog shot a higher percentage in 5 of those years while delivering comparable all around numbers.

In regards to Milwaukees big three of Robinson/Cassel/Allen, Robinson was generally considered the main guy most of those years but I alway felt that Sam Cassel was the teams most important player because of his leadership, playmaking and clutch play. Ray Allen was the rising star but never really separated himself from the other two numbers wise and if you look back at the stats Cassel was the teams most productive player