The Center Position: Is it weak?

[La Frescobaldi]

Watching Golden State playoff series with a hobbling bogut, unable to make a quick decisive move in the post, void of any quickness at all made me realise what we all have missed out on with this guy.

I firmly believe if healthy he would easily be the most well rounded centre the league has seen in years. He has a remarkable offensive/defensive balance, a few years ago finishing the league second in blocked shots and second in charges taken. If not for the wrist injury i imagine he would have been able to pull it together from the line and wouldn't so heavily favour the left handed hook. We know he can score given the touches and is an excellent offensive rebounder. If he was healthy and surrounded with shooter as dwight was in orlando I'm sure he would flourish with his passing ability. Dwights Career high in assists is 1.9. Bogut managed 3.2 in just his second season in the league, that number never dipped below 2. I understand SVG system led to a kick out and swing to the corner but surely Boguts passing skills would at least lead him to average four a game if every possession was run through him.

I imagine if Oden had been healthy he would be the most dominant but i doubt as well rounded as a healthy Bogut. Which Centre would you have wished had Dwights amazing durability?

I really think Golden State is a perfect team for triangle offense.

They have every position correct for it, from running Lee/ Bogut in a high-low post, to the 2 man game, also the great corner swings..... Coach Jackson never ran it on his own teams as a player but he sure got nightmare doses of it in full from Phil Jackson's Pippen-Jordan Bulls & Kobe-Shaq Lakers.

[ProfessorMurder]

fair enough. He is one of my all time favorite players. But I also think the idea of prior toughness/greatness is partly the it was better back then effect, as well as changes in rules. If you played like laimbeer today, you would be suspended for the season ever year. Also, the idea of massive back to the basket players at the center overstates their role (and forgets that the best lowpost scorer of the 80s - arguably- is a pf, McHale). Anyways....

Yeah, I do agree with the premise of the thread though. I was thinking about it recently, most teams have a competitive center.

The problem is there are no great centers. Rules changes and poor big man coaching at all levels have gotten rid of real post play. Plus don't forget that while most teams have an okay center they are for the most part good at offense OR defense, not both.

Chandler = Defense
Cousins = Offense
Bynum = Offense
Hibbert = Defense
Lopez = Offense
Noah = Defense

The only arguable two way guy is Dwight but his offensive game is very weak. The next big guy who comes into the league and plays both sides of the floor well will be huge.

[ChuckOakley]

Yeah, I do agree with the premise of the thread though. I was thinking about it recently, most teams have a competitive center.

The problem is there are no great centers. Rules changes and poor big man coaching at all levels have gotten rid of real post play. Plus don't forget that while most teams have an okay center they are for the most part good at offense OR defense, not both.

Chandler = Defense
Cousins = Offense
Bynum = Offense
Hibbert = Defense
Lopez = Offense
Noah = Defense

The only arguable two way guy is Dwight but his offensive game is very weak. The next big guy who comes into the league and plays both sides of the floor well will be huge.

Dwight is hardly weak offensively.
He's a 20ppg scorer who manages to do it on 55-60% shooting.
And no, I don't care how he scores, it's still two points (often with a foul on the opponent) and he does it very efficiently.

[crunk-juice]

Hibbert is the most 'pure' center in the league. He also happens to be top 5 at his position.

[bdreason]

There are more good Centers than PF's.

[SixShooter]

its the best position in the league other than SF

It just looks bad when you compare it to the 90s.

[bdreason]

Ridiculous post and assumption.

http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=17m45s

Listen to the pros touch on this subject. Armchair experts who leap to the conclusion that the center position is 'obsolete' (simply because there are currently no dominant centers) are doing nothing but blowing smoke out their ass. The position is not and will never be obsolete. The simple fact of the matter is dominant and truly gifted centers are rare and always have been. There are never more than a few in the league at a time, and some times a few years go by where we see none. The last crop that had potential are injury prone so right now we're in a particularly void era of bigs. Our current era does have plenty of servicable centers, just no dominant ones. If you think this era or any era would render a Kareem or Shaq or Wilt 'obsolete' than you fail to understand the game of basketball.

The new rules make doubling the post easier than it's ever been. When Shaq was dominating teams could not double until he caught the ball, which made recovering from the double much more difficult. While a player like Shaq would still be dominant today, he would be much easier to contain, as teams could double him before he even caught the ball, and recover from the double that much quicker. I'm not even taking into consideration how much defensive flopping has increased. Shaq would be called for a lot more fouls performing his drop step with the current rule set.


It's not just that the talent of bigs has decreased, it's also that the rules have been changed to reduce scoring from the post. The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds.

[CavaliersFTW]

The new rules make doubling the post easier than it's ever been. When Shaq was dominating teams could not double until he caught the ball, which made recovering from the double much more difficult. While a player like Shaq would still be dominant today, he would be much easier to contain, as teams could double him before he even caught the ball, and recover from the double that much quicker. I'm not even taking into consideration how much defensive flopping has increased. Shaq would be called for a lot more fouls performing his drop step with the current rule set.


It's not just that the talent of bigs has decreased, it's also that the rules have been changed to reduce scoring from the post. The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds.

Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, etc are INSANELY talented, and yes much more talented than anyone playing today at that position. They would be NO LESS effective today than they were relative to their peers in their own day. People act like rule changes suddenly make players unable to cope like they are robots, rule changes do not make them less effective players, they only change the way they play the game and we're talking about incredibly minor changes that are near-as-makes NO difference to begin with. People like you who come up with excuses for the lack of dominant centers by looking to the rules of the game are being ridiculous. For every rule change that makes 1 area of the game more difficult there are more rule changes that make it easier in other ways. Great talents are great no matter WHAT. The fact that there is no great talent in the league right now that is let's say, 7 feet tall is simply because it's RARE. How many times has a Wilt, Kareem, or Shaq level player come and gone throughout basketball history? Are we supposed to act like there are players of that caliber in the league today who are stifled by rules? That's a load of hot B.S. A player of any of those 3 caliber would be sensational since HS level and the simple fact of the matter is Shaq was the most recent player of that magnitude. Another will come along someday - and these B.S. 'rule changes killed big men!' theories will disappear.

[bdreason]

I said it's a contributing factor. The rule changes have also contributed to this "era of PG's". The inability of defenders to be physical on the perimeter has turned every small / quick player into an unstoppable force. Many of these smaller guards would get bullied and pushed off their line in the past, but now they are allowed to get anywhere on the court that they please.


It's also important to consider that coaches have changed their strategies to adjust to the rules, meaning modern post players are actually given less opportunities to produce. How many teams in the league consistently run plays from the low post? Coaches have adjusted their strategies to maximize efficiency, which with the modern rules, typically means slashing to the basket and getting to the FT line as much as possible.

I actually feel bad for modern post players. You look at a team like Utah last season, whose backcourt was average at best, yet they never consistently posted Al Jefferson, one of the best post players in the league. It wasn't because Al Jeff isn't capable of scoring from the post. It's because as soon as the opposing defense decides to shut down the post, it becomes significantly less efficient to run the offense through the low post (because of the modern defense rules that allow doubling anyone, at anytime)... and you're better off just letting a perimeter player try to drive into the paint and get to the FT line.


For someone like me, who LOVES post play, it's actually a fairly depressing state of affairs.

[sportjames23]

half of the list in OP are really power forwards who play center almost full time. the center position is so weak that power forwards can play the 5 hole can fool people like the OP into thinking that there are decent centers.

the 80s and 90s had real centers. it used to be really obvious what a center and a power forward is. and no a stretch 4 isnt a power forward

This right fvckin' here.

[D.J.]

Ridiculous post and assumption.

http://youtu.be/zukRbA3y0qo?t=17m45s

Listen to the pros touch on this subject. Armchair experts who leap to the conclusion that the center position is 'obsolete' (simply because there are currently no dominant centers) are doing nothing but blowing smoke out their ass. The position is not and will never be obsolete. The simple fact of the matter is dominant and truly gifted centers are rare and always have been. There are never more than a few in the league at a time, and some times a few years go by where we see none. The last crop that had potential are injury prone so right now we're in a particularly void era of bigs. Our current era does have plenty of servicable centers, just no dominant ones. If you think this era or any era would render a Kareem or Shaq or Wilt 'obsolete' than you fail to understand the game of basketball.

Looking at past championship teams, it seems the center position is obselete. Like I said before, today's game involves centers playing like oversized 4s. Look at past champs and their centers and power forwards:


2013- Chris Bosh-Udonis Haslem
2012- Chris Bosh-Shane Battier/Udonis Haslem
2011- Tyson Chandler-Dirk Nowitzki
2010- Andrew Bynum-Pau Gasol
2009- Pau Gasol-Lamar Odom
2008- Kendrick Perkins-Kevin Garnett
2007- Fabricio Oberto-Tim Duncan
2006- Shaquille O'Neal-Antoine Walker/Udonis Haslem


With the current rules the way they are, they don't let players be centers like you could back in the day. Today's game favors perimeter players and big men who play on the perimeter. Chris Bosh is really a PF and he plays like one. Gasol is also really a PF. Then you have guys like Chandler, Perkins, and Oberto who can all defend, but contribute very little offensively. In those cases, their team has a very good PF(Dirk, Garnett, Duncan).

So yes, the center position is about as obsolete as you can get. Gone are the days where you need a Shaq, Admiral, Hakeem, or Kareem. Back then, the only exception was the Bulls(Cartwright and Longley).

[D.J.]

The NBA even created a rule that disallows posting up for more than 5 seconds.

That's the Charles Barkley rule. He would just post you up from 20 feet out and back you down all the way to the hoop. And he'd get away with it because he was so strong.

[Blue&Orange]

It's not weak, it's just obsolete. With today's game favoring perimeter players and outside play, points are really combo guards and centers are more like oversized 4s. The days of centers like Laimbeer and Parish are over.

So stupid

If center position is obsolete why did the Lakers traded for Howard when they knew there was a big chance he would walk?

Why does every team overpaid centers and try to get them at any cost?


Center position is disgraceful weak.

[Blue&Orange]

Like I said before, today's game involves centers playing like oversized 4s.

Chris Bosh is really a PF and he plays like one. Gasol is also really a PF.

More stupid.

So which is it? Are Bosh and Gasol centers playing like oversized 4's, or really PF's?


And here i thought the trend was putting PF's playing like centers, small lineups because guess what centers are incredible bad.

[Jon_Koncak]

You know the current crop of centers suck when players like Valancunas,McGee,Sanders,Vucevic,Gortat are considered the elite of the league.