Kblazes long boring post on offense.

[Kblaze8855]

Bit of a companion essay to my last long boring topic on defense:


http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=316855

I have nothing to do, nowhere to be, and no plans until late this afternoon so....these 15 with those 11 I think will give you a pretty good idea what im looking for when I judge a basketball player. at the end I may add up a few greats and see who has the most qualities I desire. I suspect it will be Jordan, Bird, or Bill Russell.

Split in two because I suspect its too long for one post...


1.

Ability to prosper when the defense decides to give you an aspect of your game they decide isnt as effective. Few players have it all. Most...even most greats....are lacking somewhere. Perhaps they cant finish among the trees, cant shoot outside, cant go left, or cant play a quicker man.

In this day of 100% coverage and mobile devices coaches know you cant shoot from the baseline, cant go to your off hand, or always pop on the pick and never roll. They know that when you drive its to kick and not to score. So they know you. They know the position to put you in.

Some players just laugh and prosper anyway.

Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Steve Nash, and a few others stand out.

Nash spends all year passing, finding cutters, driving and kicking, and running that trademark circle through the lane and back out looking to pass it off. So the Mavs decide to play him as a passer and see if he can beat them if they stay home and dont give him the lanes to find guys. Soooooooo...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoYOs2_3i2Y


48 points.

Jordan rules. Pistons decide to push MJ left, cut off the baseline, hammer him when he drives, and keep a fresh man on him since he wore guys out and feasted when they lost a step. Legend suggests it stopped him but it never really did. It roughed him up while he dropped 40-60. It slowed him down early. And even then it slowed him to 27/9/8(1989). It made him a passer. A drive and kick guy more than he would have liked as he watched open guys miss the resulting jumpers. But as great players do he adjusted.

It was nothing the Bucks didnt do the whole back half of the 80s while he scored 40 on them too.

With teammates who didnt shrink it wouldnt have even slowed him to begin with. Once the Bulls came into form it was just talk. Same gameplan. Same jordan approach. But BJ, Hodges, Pippen, and Paxon started making jumpers and that was that.


Long story short....I mean the ability to succeed when the defense feels it set you up for failure.



2.


Passing. Do not read that as "Assists". I mean the passes in the course of running an offense. Entry passing. Outlet Passing. General ball movement. Many players were great as aspects of passing but never get mentioned as among the great passers because assists are what get you credit. But Charles Oakley, Scott Skiles, John Starks, Brian Shaw, and even guys like Shaq. Great passers. Oakley might have been the best lob thrower and outlet passer in the NBA for a while. Starks, Shaw, and Skiles entry passing never get talked about but it was key to a lot of teams. Larry Bird might have been the best outlet passer in the NBA at one time and perhaps had no non PG peer as an entry passer ever. Most passes are not to a shooter/finisher.




3. Getting to and finishing at the basket.

Jordan, Lebron, Grant Hill, Wade, and Nique style.


Being able to look a guy in the face and walk by him and score on his help defense....If you need it explained why id look for that take up a new sport.





4. Outside shooting. Not just 3s. Outside shooting. Not the same thing. I mean generally being able to score from parts of the floor the defense isnt trying to prevent you from finding yourself. Even teams that run you off the line arent trying to concede the paint. You dont let people drive. If it comes down to a layup or giving up a long jumper teams give up the long jumper and hope you miss.

The people who dont miss....useful. Not just for the obvious reason..the points. But for the spacing. A term ive come to hate lately since so many people use it acting like its something you need out of every position to the extent they want 7 footers taking 3s and pullup jumpers. But "That will never work! Where is the spacing!?!?!" antics aside....its an aspect to consider.




5.

Off the ball movement and positioning. How many times have you seen Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, or Allen Iverson just pop open for a big shot and wondered "How do you let ___ get open there!". It really really isnt the other team not knowing what is gonna happen. Its guys who spend a career making you pay when you turn to see where a pass is going, if a shot is made, or just dont keep a hand on them doing what they do. Ray Allen knows where he is and what to do at all times. Which is why he doesnt need to look down to know where the 3 point line is and how much room he has:



It isnt defenders being idiots(usually). Its tireless movement, understanding where to go, and quickness(more than speed really...you never get to full speed in the halfcourt). They get open 10000 times a career when everyone knows they are looking to catch and shoot not because they play off stars who draw the attention like a role player. But because knowing they are doing it doesnt help you stop it when they only need 9 inches of space and you to look into the lane for a half second on a pass inside that quickly gets kicked back out to them....9 feet from where you left them. It takes effort and discipline that most just dont have.

And since positioning is the issue im gonna also include setting screens here. Easily the most overlooked aspect of offense to me. Especially these days when it seems it isnt just pointguards scoring mostly off picks. Lebron, Durant, Wade, and others have turned it into a real weapon.

Dale Davis, Wes Unseld, KG(moving screens usually) and even John Stockton deserve a mention here. Im not sure it needs its own section....but its sure an important aspect of positioning so it had to be mentioned.



6. Leadership.

Im not gonna bring out the Magics and Bird on this one...instead ill mention someone known more for his offense.

Scottie Pippen. I heard Steve Kerr say once that Pippen was able to do anything he wanted. Slash, shoot, post up, run the floor.....do it all. But all he cared about was making sure that the guys who could only do one thing.....were put in position to do it. So shooters who have no had a good look in a while he will tell them hes going to...and then deliver on....getting them an open shot.

I was reading about Chauncey Billups relationship with Brandon Jennings and him trying to teach him that he doesnt always have to do as hes told(amusing thought that Jennings might think he does). That hes the point...that he has veto power over even the coach on the flow. To make himself and his teammates comfortable if he sees something that goes against the offense the coach sets up. Goes out there and shows him how its done.

Thats what I mean by leadership. Not just scoring the most points. Its a big abstract...but it counts.




7. Clutch play. Which as time goes by I feel is less and less mental and more an issue of skill set. Also...clutchness is not an offense only issue. So instead im gonna word this as....

Performing on command.

Being able to do what makes you great on command isnt always an issue of your mindstate. Karl Malone for one....nobody doubts that hes great. But what made him great was his hands, finishing in traffic, running the floor, chemistry with John Stockton and the consistency those things granted him.

But he couldnt use any of them to get you a single shot on his own under pressure. Not at a rate equal to his status in history. He made a lot of fadeaways and jab step jumpers. But not at a rate that would make him the top 20 all time player as he is now. That was what he fell back on. Not what made him great.

Dirk....overall a worse player. Worse defender, rebounder, and passer. Scored less as well. But what he does....can get me a shot any time I want it. I cant assume that:








will happen with 6 seconds left down 1.

It might happen 6 times a game giving him 12 points, to add to his going 9-13 from the line on fouls from similar plays, and 2-6 on midrange jumpers, with a nice post move for a layup mixed in to give him 27 points.

But I cant count on it at any given moment. I can count on Dirk getting this shot 90% of the time I ask him to:





He wont make it every time. But he will make it at a rate that is legendary. He will make it often enough that if I give him a good team that only needs him to come through with 4 out 6 of them in key moments to win a series...I have faith he can give me that.

And while it doesnt result in totals as staggering as a Karl Malone....I think it requires a less dominant supporting cast to get wins that matter.

[Teanett]

what does this have to do with melo?

[Kblaze8855]

8. Offensive rebounding:

I'll keep this one short.

Dennis Rodman in the 96 finals may have been the key to a ring. One game he had 11 offensive rebounds in a 4 point win....he had 7 offensive rebounds in a quarter. And that wasnt even his only 11 offensive rebound game we won in that finals...he had 11 more in game 6. He had 40 offensive rebounds that series. Kemp was the only Sonic who had 40 rebounds....period.

Tyson Chandler the last 5-6 years mastering the tip out to a teammate not the other team...we have all seen this being the turning point. If the Kings had Tyson Chandler under the basket in 02 Horry never makes that 3....because Tyson tips it to a King.

Rajon Rondo has been making some bigman look bad then getting a key basket once a month for years.



^
It matters.







9. Playmaking. This is where assists come in.


I could explain with a string of Magic Johnson gifs but im gonna spare you the page loading time and assume you know what I mean. Especially the something out of nothing plays. Plays that have no business being made but guys like Magic, Stockton, Nash, and even Lebron, Manu, and so on will make now and then.

Im sure we all love a good:





10. Craftiness.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42c470-MjM

^
Dennis Johnson and Larry Bird did that at least one other time I remember...and we didnt see as many games back then. They probably did it all the time. Cant always make the physical plays. Gotta out think the opponent too.

Which reminds me....Michael Jordan in his youth had a tactic for blocking slower guards. He would take a bad angle on a pass....or...just pretend to get beaten...only to swoop in and block the open shot from behind. It worked all the time. DJ was getting old. So MJ tried it. DJ blows by like he just saw a chance to score. MJ closes from behind in the blink of an eye. DJ pump fakes...MJ flys by while DJ gives him the :






face.

He knocks down the jumper with MJ safely out of the picture and goes by the Bulls bench and said something to Doug Collins that the commentators said was "Who is this kid?"

Being the smartest guy on the court helps just as much as being the fastest.



11. Ball handling. Not crossovers and spin moves exactly though them too. I mean the ability to protect the ball from defenders and get where you need to be without giving up your dribble. Lot of guys with nasty handles cant dribble in traffic even if they will clown you at the top of the key. Some guys can protect the ball all day in order to run an offense but arent the most crossover prone(Looking at you Mark Jackson). So I dont mean any single area. But ill grant you it is nice to see:








Now and then.

And I swear to god ill delete it if someone posts Jamal Crawford doing Kirk Hinrich dirty. Kirk has suffered enough.

[Kblaze8855]

12. Post play. Guard or bigman.....a great post scorer can generate good shots at a rate you can build a team around.

Its been a key element on at least 50 title teams. The winds seems to be blowing the other way...but :

[IMG][/IMG]


Will forever be in my heart.


13. Free throw shooting. Simple concept...I will not go into it. I will note that I said free throw shooting and not drawing fouls. Drawing fouls id say generally comes from the skills above leaving a man out of position....getting to the basket and being in traffic....not flopping, ripping through, or jumping into someone trying to make the refs give you something. I admit its effective these days.

But I never have and never will look for that quality in a player far as judging them. To me its almost like respecting the ability to carry the ball just because its effective and the refs allow it. Sure....it works. Doesnt mean im seeking out players good at it. Game being called properly I dont think the current method of drawing fouls would even exist so I cant exactly rep it. Its barely even basketball to me.











Just because it works doesnt mean im considering it as a basketball skill.


14.Versatility. Needs little explaining so I will do little. Guys who can plug holes have obvious value game to game. But more than that they have an ability to adapt to different coaching and different teammates. Lebron could go be a power forward all year or a point guard and be one of the best at either. Him...Magic...Bird...Pippen. Do whatever you ask from almost whatever position of weakness you might have. Larry Bird late in his career played what I might call point....power....forward. 60 foot outlet passes, running the offense in the halfcourt, posting up, and guarding bigmen.

Doing one thing great is often more effective than doing it all well. But you need both for a team.


15.

The ability to make "Thats bullshit........." plays.

Hard to explain but you know them when you see them. Guys like Kobe, Bird, Paul, and Nash...

Those plays that nobody set out to create. The clock might be winding down. Perhaps the guy just feels like he can make something happen. But they all leave you thinking "We deserved the stop right there...". The plays you cant even be mad at anyone over. The guy is just too good...hes worked on every angle...taken every shot 2000 times in the gym....and you just cant do shit about it.

Often these plays are needed in clutch situation or just anything against the clock. Some call it luck. But special players make them at a rate too high to pretend its that simple. Those guys who make shots where you just have to tell the defender "Hey man....there was nothing more you could do...."

I'll Let Kobe and Larry explain for me:

[TheCorporation]

what does this have to do with melo?

Not a whole lot...And I think that's the point

[Kblaze8855]

Id say melo can claim 6 of these.

[K Xerxes]

Taking into account all of these, I'd say Bird comes out on top. Which is why I've repeatedly said Bird is the greatest all-round offensive player of all time.

[Kblaze8855]

Two lists...

Man to man defense.
Ball denial and positioning
Forcing the defense to account for you even if you aren't actually a great defender
Effort plays.
Off the ball drive prevention
Defensive deadership
Hole filling/being well rounded
Intimidation
Changing the oppositions approach to the game
Rebounding

Honorable mention....
By any means/physical/cheap play


Being successful with what the defense is willing to concede to you
Passing
Getting to the basket
Outside shooting
Off the ball movement
Offensive Leadership
Clutch play
Offensive rebounding
Playmaking
Craftiness/general offensive brilliance
Ball handling
Post play
Free throw shooting
Versatility
"Thats bullshit...." plays


Scottie Pippen id say has 14 of the 26 qualities between the two topics.

Bird also 14 of 26(mostly offense).

Jordan 15 I believe.

I doubt anyone tops that. Especially since mine is the only opinion im factoring in.

[DMAVS41]

Id say melo can claim 6 of these.

How many does Dirk have?

[LeGOAT]

I've come to the conclusion,based on this past,that LeBron is. GOAT

[Kblaze8855]

How many does Dirk have?

I'll give him 8.

Arguably 9. Im not sure if id call the way he gets shots off over more athletic defenders crafty as much as....having the 15th "Thats bullshit...." quality.

He doesnt get open. He just makes it anyway. It looks kinda...crafty.

But im not sure anything about it is effective except that hes good enough for the ball to go in.

Nobody is really...fooled. Or outsmarted. Hes just really really really hard to stop from making shots that shouldnt go in.

[BoutPractice]

Would you count the Dr. J... well, you know that shot, as a "that's bullshit" play? Or those ridiculous circus shots DWade and Manu often seem to make?

And I'd say Dirk has shown plenty of times he can be crafty with fakes, but that's just me.

[Kblaze8855]

I've come to the conclusion,based on this past,that LeBron is. GOAT

Between the two lists id give him credit for 11 or 12 of 26.

Just so happens he has the ones most important for what he is asked to do.

Reggie Miller is in the HOF and he has like...3 of 26. Dont have to be that well rounded if you are good enough at what you do.

[MP.Trey]

Haven't had the time to read it fully, but that Barkley-Rodman rebound battle gif is wonderful.

[CeltsGarlic]

I dont know if you included my fav ability - knowing how to play ball. I can say I can only name several guys: Josh McRoberts (from what I saw in last 5-8 games of his this year), Spencer Hawes, Luis Scola (totally).. Maybe some more, but thats just off the top of my head.

What I meant, is basically natural ability to know when to pump fake, when to dribble the basket.
I was mostly imagining Scola.

Basically they make the right plays. Fast.


Edit. Kind of craftiness, but not really.