KD & LeBron first 7 seasons of their careers

[moe94]

LeBron didn't have 2 stars in Cleveland. Kobe just wasn't as good as Lebron, D-wade, or KD in his early years.

Cleveland LeBron so forgotten.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Cleveland LeBron so forgotten.

D-Wade in his early years is too. Both had bad teams early on minus Shaq with the Heat.

[Suguru101]

LeBron shot 20% in the '12 playoffs on jumpers and his team still won. His post game wasn't any good either. Remember all the threads from trolls about him having a shitty post game? So, why did he win in '12 and not '09 and '10? His teammates. I could post so many stats about how much his teammates choked in the Playoffs and how LeBron led his team in nearly every statistical category, but it has already been done to death.

The Cavaliers didn't have anyone to help LeBron. To take a bit of defensive pressure off of him. You saw how KD performed in the Playoffs last season? Dude had a wet jumper and still couldn't beat the Grizzlies. He didn't have a legit second scorer. A player who could command a bit of defensive attention, so KD could do his thing. Would be no different if he played the Celtics. IMO, LeBeon was more devastating because of his passing. If only his teammates could've hit the numerous open looks that he got them.

The Celtics and Magic collapsed onto LeBron, whenever he tried to drive. A number of times he passed the ball to open teammates, who usually bricked their shots. You seriously can't expect a player (any player, as a matter of fact) to win with Mo Williams, West, 38 year old Shaq, a washed up Jamison, Anthony Parker (LOL!), etc. as your teammates. Kobe wouldn't have won with them and KD wouldn't have either.

Kobe won because he's Kobe and also because he had a bunch of other great players around him. Gasol and Odom were great. Relative to the competition, Kobe had, by far, the best frontline in the league.

LeBron's post game wasn't any good? Which games were you watching that year? And you are basing it off on trolls saying LeBron had a shitt* post game because it wasn't aesthetically pleasing? Wow..

LeBron's post game altered the entire series because it changed how LeBron had to be defended and how his teammates had to be guarded.

LeBron's teammates weren't very good in Cleveland compared to Miami, i know, but those Cavs teams were good enough to get to the Finals, they weren't trash either. LeBron just wasn't a complete offensive player back then.

[aj1987]

LeBron's post game wasn't any good? Which games were you watching that year? And you are basing it off on trolls saying LeBron had a shitt* post game because it wasn't aesthetically pleasing? Wow..

LeBron's post game altered the entire series because it changed how LeBron had to be defended and how his teammates had to be guarded.

I'm specifically talking about the '12 Finals. LeBron scored most of his posts by driving and attacking the basket. OKC's defenses started collapsing onto LeBron, as soon as he started to attack the basket and he would kick it out to open shooters.

Watch this video. There are two examples of that in there. See how 2-3 OKC defenders immediately converge upon LeBron, leaving 1 or 2 Heat players open? I could do a complete breakdown of all his shots and assists, which would show that he was doing it like I said above, but it would take forever and I don't have the time. You can download the '12 Finals and rematch them

He shot 25% outside of the RA, BTW. Not 20%. My mistake.

LeBron's teammates weren't very good in Cleveland compared to Miami, i know, but those Cavs teams were good enough to get to the Finals, they weren't trash either. LeBron just wasn't a complete offensive player back then.

Oh god. You're making me do this again.

Lets take a look at the Magic and Celtics series. First, the Magic series in '09.

LeBron had one of the greatest series of all time, in a losing effort. Dude averaged 39/8/8 on 59% TS.

His teammates?
Mo Williams - 18/4/4 on 50% TS (37.1% FG%)
West - 15/3/3 on 52% TS
Ilgauskas - 10 on 49% TS

They were absolutely horrific. LeBron would've easily averaged double digits in assists, if it wasn't for his scrubby teammates missing open shots. LeBron led his team in points, assists, block, efficiency, and almost led the team in blocks and rebounds as well. Again, this is the same team that Kobe won against, while playing worse than LeBron did.

How can you not hold his teammates accountable for the loss? Dude was flat out besting and his teammates sucked balls.

Lets take a look at his shot chart.



Dude was really good from midrange. It's not like he stunk it up from midrange and that's the reason they lost.

2010 Celtics vs Cavs. The series in which LeBron apparently "quit" on his team.
First of all, the Cavs' second best player this series was a 37 year old Shaq. Dude averaged 14/5. That was his second best player. A guys who scored most of his points off of assists from LeBron. A guy who couldn't even play defense at that point of his career. The rest?
Mo Williams - 13/4/6 on 52% TS
Jamison - 12/7 on 48% TS
Anthony Parker, West, and the rest sucked ass as well. Seriously, how can this team beat a team of KG, Pierce, Allen, and Rondo?

LeBron still was able to score 27/9/7/2/1 on 56% TS. LeBron's shot wasn't all that good in this series, but his teammates sucking hard was what done them in.

His shot chart against the Celtics:



Once again, how could he have won if his teammates were that bad? Even KD and Kobe wouldn't be able to do it with LeBron's Cav's teammates.

[che guevara]

LeBron's post game wasn't any good? Which games were you watching that year? And you are basing it off on trolls saying LeBron had a shitt* post game because it wasn't aesthetically pleasing? Wow..

LeBron's post game altered the entire series because it changed how LeBron had to be defended and how his teammates had to be guarded.

LeBron's teammates weren't very good in Cleveland compared to Miami, i know, but those Cavs teams were good enough to get to the Finals, they weren't trash either. LeBron just wasn't a complete offensive player back then.

Is there anything more overrated than 2012 Lebron's "post game"? He has a legit post game now, in 2014, but two years ago it consisted of fadeaway jumpers and almost nothing else. He was getting single coverage in the post so often against the '12 Celtics because they were thrilled to see him shoot low % fadeaways from there. The Thunder stupidly doubled him nearly every time he posted up, which resulted in open shot after open shot for his teammates.

Go back and watch the 2010 Celtics series and then watch the 2011 and 2012 series, it's a joke how much more attention he was getting in '10 - and this has nothing at all to do with Lebron, and everything to do with the fact that it's a ****load easier to defend Mo Williams, 895 year old Shaq, and Jamison than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.

Lebron in 2010 was flat out a better offensive player than he as in 2012 - quite a bit more athletic (and as a result a far superior driver and finisher) AND a better shooter than he was in the '12 playoffs (he was shooting a putrid % outside of the restricted area against the '12 Celtcs, the lone game where he wasn't sucking ass with his jumper was game 6). The lone advantage '12 Bron had was his post game, which at that point was just a decoy, hoping teams would double him so he could hit open 3 point shooters. That worked against teams with stupid coaches like Scott Brooks and the Thunder, but against smart teams like the Celtics, they were happy to see him try to score in the post.

Lebron winning against the '12 Celtics while he lost in '10 had everything to do with his team dynamic and nothing to do with Lebron himself. '12 Lebron isn't doing any better if he was on the '10 Cavs.

[Keno]

lebron numbers are out of this world. all around crazy numbers. look like nba2k my player numbers.

[aj1987]

lebron numbers are out of this world. all around crazy numbers. look like nba2k my player numbers.

True. His 11 year career average as well. 28/7/7 on 58% TS?

[russwest0]

The way OKC defended LeBron in the 2012 Finals was completely retarded. I knew they were ****ed when I saw Serge Ibaka switching onto him and covering him out to the 3pt line. He shot 20% on all jumpers in that series and still had a pretty good series scoring wise.

I want OKC to win the chip this year but at the same time it just means more Scott Brooks. Tired of seeing Durant bail his ass out every night.

[DMAVS41]

Is there anything more overrated than 2012 Lebron's "post game"? He has a legit post game now, in 2014, but two years ago it consisted of fadeaway jumpers and almost nothing else. He was getting single coverage in the post so often against the '12 Celtics because they were thrilled to see him shoot low % fadeaways from there. The Thunder stupidly doubled him nearly every time he posted up, which resulted in open shot after open shot for his teammates.

Go back and watch the 2010 Celtics series and then watch the 2011 and 2012 series, it's a joke how much more attention he was getting in '10 - and this has nothing at all to do with Lebron, and everything to do with the fact that it's a ****load easier to defend Mo Williams, 895 year old Shaq, and Jamison than Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.

Lebron in 2010 was flat out a better offensive player than he as in 2012 - quite a bit more athletic (and as a result a far superior driver and finisher) AND a better shooter than he was in the '12 playoffs (he was shooting a putrid % outside of the restricted area against the '12 Celtcs, the lone game where he wasn't sucking ass with his jumper was game 6). The lone advantage '12 Bron had was his post game, which at that point was just a decoy, hoping teams would double him so he could hit open 3 point shooters. That worked against teams with stupid coaches like Scott Brooks and the Thunder, but against smart teams like the Celtics, they were happy to see him try to score in the post.

Lebron winning against the '12 Celtics while he lost in '10 had everything to do with his team dynamic and nothing to do with Lebron himself. '12 Lebron isn't doing any better if he was on the '10 Cavs.

I think Lebron has improved overall as a players from 09 until now, but it's marginal...and I kind of fell for that notion a bit as well.

Why is everyone forgetting that we just saw Lebron shoot horribly in the finals through the first 5.75 games????

Lebron was shooting 40.7% fg and 49% TS through the first 5 games and 3 qtrs of game 6 against the Spurs. The Spurs were doing to Lebron exactly what the Mavs did in 11. There was no dramatic improvement in Lebron's game from year to year like people said. Again, I fell for it a bit as well. Lebron's jumper is still broke when it comes to how certain teams defend or he feels pressure.

We have to give him credit for game 7, but the truth is that if Ray Allen misses that shot in game 6...we are debating which giant pile of shit was worse for Lebron...the 11 finals or 13 finals.

I've defended Lebron for years on here and he's definitely going to be battling for top 5 all time, but he has a legit flaw in his game that doesn't seem to ever be going away. He can't consistently score in the half court when teams defend him in a way that forces jumpers. It's not easy and only a handful of teams can do it since he's been in the league, but it's a big enough flaw that it already cost him a title in 11 and lets be honest...should have in 13 if not for a ton of "luck"...as Lebron himself rightly admitted.

[edrick]

Anyone that thinks Lebron had a good post game in the past has a bad memory. Lebron had no idea what to do if he caught the ball down there. It was awful. But, people also forget how much he dominated even though his second best options were Mo Williams, Old man Shaq, Larry ****ing Hughes. Big Z was really just a lesser Chris Bosh, because of his bad feet, neither can stop other bigs from scoring. There was rarely a reason for defenses not to collapse on Lebron in the paint, not only because he teammates were missing wide open jumpers, but also because he would score over 1 or 2 defenders in the paint if defenses didn't collapse.

[russwest0]

All I pretty much remember from LeBron in the 2012 Finals, and playoff run in general was him lowering his head, barreling into the lane and stiff arming any defender near him and then hearing the whistle and throwing the ball up and going to the FT line.

Never hated LeBron before that playoff run. Never cared that he left Cleveland for Miami. Never cared about his shortcomings vs the Mavs and their great gameplan, or anything like that. You saw almost no skill from LeBron in the 2012 Finals. No artistry. I get it, it's where the league is at today. Shit just didn't feel like basketball to me. He wasn't even playing good defense either. When on Durant or Westbrook he got torched. He was just able to hide behind guys like Perkins because Scott Brooks is a ****ing inept moron. Durant held him to 9-27 shooting but didn't even get to guard him that much because the refs were going apeshit with the whistle for LeBron that year. The NBA wouldn't even let us watch two stars go at it like Durant wanted. (And while LeBron wanted to hide on D vs Perkins).

As a basketball fan it's just hard for me to see so many teams COMMIT to double teaming Durant everytime he touches the ball and still watch him effortlessly put up 30PPG, and then on the other end watch LeBron almost NEVER get double teamed and consider LeBron the better player. Can't think of any other great perimeter player in recent history who the scouting report for at the highest level, was just "put Boris Diaw/DeShawn Stephenson on him and leave him wide open with room to shoot."

[iznogood]

I want OKC to win the chip this year but at the same time it just means more Scott Brooks. Tired of seeing Durant bail his ass out every night.

This.

[russwest0]

This.

Just watched the Spurs vs the Warriors and the shit was unbelivable. The Warriors essentially run the same offense as OKC, which is "Go out there and play!" Difference is they don't have Kevin Durant to pull that shit off every night. Watching the Spurs without two of their stars, set into an offense everytime, work the ball around if nothing is open, constantly move off ball FOR A REASON (and not just aimlessly) and get the highest percentage look possible. Shit was a thing of beauty.

Caught my self dreaming at OKC even having ERIC ****ing SPOELSTRA just to have something even resembling an offense. And DEFENSE? Shit, just watched that Mark Cuban on First Take video with him talking about the basics of a zone defense, and felt like even that dude could gameplan a better defense than Scott Brooks, who's defensive mentality is basically "Guard your man and take individual pride!"

It truly is amazing that OKC is where they are at right now in terms of being a true contender with this jackass of a coach. They have a young GM that's cracked the ****ing code and found the formula to draft a talented player every year, but there doesn't appear to be a set plan in place nor a certain respect to team composition. Just stockpiling these talented ****ing goons with elite height and 8 foot long arms. For example, give OKC Pat Riley or Phil Jackson right now and they don't have Caron Butler and Derek Fisher playing the sniper role.

Watching those two shoot like 2-20 vs the Raps the other night and then watching Ray Allen come up huge for Miami was ****ing irritating. That look on KD's face after he drilled the game winning 3 pointer, playing 52 minutes on a b2b was basically like "Let's get the **** out of here. I'm done with this shit."

[ImKobe]

Kobe's overall numbers pale in comparison because he started off as a bench warmer due to being drafted at 17 years old, he flew under the radar as far as his draft stock was concerned, he was the youngest player to come out of the draft & not many teams were willing to draft him because though he had a lot of potential, he was too young. As a player, Kobe was already one of the best at a very young age, but he had to earn his stripes first.

2001 Kobe > any version of KD, Wade or Lebron in their first 7 seasons.

2001 Kobe matched prime Shaq number for number in the Playoffs with Kobe leading the Lakers in assists & WS & Shaq leading the Lakers in rebounds & DWS with both having equal WS/48.

People say prime Shaq is the most dominant player of all-time, a 22 year old Kobe matched his production in the Playoffs in 2001, being the best player in all of first 3 series in the West with Shaq dominating a weak front court in the Finals.

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe garbage