True or false Dirk is still a top 10 player

[Andrew Wiggins]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

[Jlamb47]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

KG > DIRK all time son

KG played both ways his whole career
he rebounds better, plays defense better, he passes better. Only thing Dirk got is scoring. KG over Dirk anyday

[HomieWeMajor]

Of course
Dirk is the white Chris Bosh with better shooting and postgame [COLOR="White"]gotem![/COLOR]

[Simple Jack]

You realize you just agreed with me for the most part.

Really bad defenders generally don't improve the defense of a team....especially at a key position like PF and even more with the fact that Dirk plays most of his minutes against the opposing starters

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

[DMAVS41]

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

Depends on how you define your terms.

Horrible is a pretty strong word.

You do realize there are varying degrees of stuff. Like a player can be more things than horrible or good? You do realize that...right?

You may not like it or not...and we can use many other metrics as well, but the best defensive metric I come across for defensive impact on a team is rapm.

We should and can use more, but you are the one making the strong statement that a player is a horrible defender. Compared to what I'd ask? What would you expect the average pf to do defensively on this Mavs team? What ranking do you think we should have defensively?

What ranking should the Mavs have? A team that starts one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league and has one of the worst center rotations in the league...

When you say someone is horrible...at least tell me what this team should be doing defensively given their players. We already know they are worse without Dirk...so, like what would this team be like with a not horrible defender? Top 10 in the league? Try to quantify how much this horrible defender hurts the team.

[miles berg]

Dirk can be a top 5 player still...at times. Consistently he is top 15.

But no way I would ever take Kevin Love over him. Griffin & Aldridge? Sure, that day has arrived. Anthony Davis? Better get ready for him he will pass not only Dirk but all of the PFs and be #1 very, very soon for a very, very long time.

KLove is a joke though. If Dirk played with Rubio, Pek, KMart, & Brewer the Mavs would have the 5th seed locked up right now pushing for home court.

[Pointguard]

Are we going to start acting like David Lee is a good defender now? Or that Anthony Davis somehow is a worse defensive player than Dirk using the same metric?

Even Steve Nash makes his teams defense better using that metric. 3 points worse when he's on the bench. Same disparity as Dirk...we going to start calling Nash a good defender? Or not horrible?

You have to be kidding me. Dmavs absolutely lost his mind with this stat in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...328345&page=12 And HurricaneKid said Dmavs was smarter than 99% of the board and has to be right about this stat.

And Steve Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. Seriously Dmavs, don't ever bring that up again.

[DMAVS41]

You have to be kidding me. Dmavs absolutely lost his mind with this stat in this thread: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...328345&page=12 And HurricaneKid said Dmavs was smarter than 99% of the board and has to be right about this stat.

And Steve Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. Seriously Dmavs, don't ever bring that up again.

What are you talking about?

Nash routinely has a negative defensive rapm and poor defensive rating. LOL

Think about your logic. Nash is unquestionably one of the worst defenders in the league. That was your statement. And what do you know...drapm shows that to be the case. He's like negative 2.5 every year.

So why is it worthless again? Seems to me it's pretty much in line with reality...

[mr.big35]

false. top 15? yes


let's be honest though, we all know dirk >>>>> kg right now and dirk > kg all time

KG was always greater than dirk

[Simple Jack]

Depends on how you define your terms.

Horrible is a pretty strong word.

You do realize there are varying degrees of stuff. Like a player can be more things than horrible or good? You do realize that...right?

You may not like it or not...and we can use many other metrics as well, but the best defensive metric I come across for defensive impact on a team is rapm.

We should and can use more, but you are the one making the strong statement that a player is a horrible defender. Compared to what I'd ask? What would you expect the average pf to do defensively on this Mavs team? What ranking do you think we should have defensively?

What ranking should the Mavs have? A team that starts one of the worst defensive backcourts in the league and has one of the worst center rotations in the league...

When you say someone is horrible...at least tell me what this team should be doing defensively given their players. We already know they are worse without Dirk...so, like what would this team be like with a not horrible defender? Top 10 in the league? Try to quantify how much this horrible defender hurts the team.

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

[DMAVS41]

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

You realize bad is different than horrible...right? I'd still have an issue with straight up bad, but at least you are making progress...

Of course there are a lot of variables, but you generally don't see a truly terrible/horrible defender having a positive impact on his teams' defensive performance over the course of a season or career...especially once you take a lot of the noise out of the on/off ratings...which is essentially rapm.

Now, defensive rapm doesn't necessarily tell you who the best defenders are...although you can infer it...but what you can do is use it to talk about how a player impacts his teams defense. And Dirk positively impacts the team defense. That is all I have said...well that, and that he's not a horrible defender.

Again though...you've now come off your initial statement.

I love how Nash was brought up earlier as an argument for your side. Can't remember if it was you or someone else, but Nash routinely grades out terribly in defensive rapm. LOL

The Mavs are a poor defensive team. And Dirk is absolutely part of the reason for that. But you implied way more than that. I'd say our inept guard defense and putrid center play is more to blame.

But again I'd like to know what an average defender in place of Dirk would transform this team into? Because the way you talk is that is like Dirk is just killing this team defensively. Like...LMA has a better defensive team around him in my opinion...and the Blazers are marginally better than the Mavs defensively iirc. So what would Aldridge to with these Mavs? Transform them into a top 10 defense or something? Just doesn't seem to follow logically...

[mr.big35]

I don't really care to define it all that specifically because I'm simply making a general blanket statement that Dirk is a bad defender, and the Mavs are a bad defensive team, in part because Dirk plays for them.

Using that stat though, includes A LOT of variables, that are simply out of the respective player's hands. The fact that you rely so heavily on it despite being able to find countless examples of scrub-defenders having the same impact as Dirk defensively (using that metric) is strange. At least try to objectively listen to the other arguments.

you are wasting with this guy he doesnt know any player besides dirk. he thinks he is the greatest ever.