To people who wear Che Guevara shirts.

[Oly BC]

People in Cuba hate Fidel and Che

They're both huge country icons, comparable to Lincoln and Roosevelt.

[Nick Young]

They're both huge country icons, comparable to Lincoln and Roosevelt.

Cubans inside and outside Cuba hate Che and Fidel, for how shit they made Cuba. It actually used to be a nice place. Now it is a 3rd world hell hole where the secret police take you away forever if you say anything slightly against the government.

[Dresta]

Exactly. No one here is claiming that Stalin, Che, Mao, Churchill, Hitler or the like where good men. None of them were. But they were great historical leaders who helped change the course of history in a positive way for their people (Except of cors Hitler who lost).

Every year Americans cry about John F Kennedy when the reality is he was a mafia sponsored adulterer who started the war in Vietnam, leaving millions dead, and nearly led the world into a Nuclear Holocaust. Its just unbelievable how basic the average Americans grasp is on International relations, history and world politics. They honestly think the International Community is a Marvel action comic, where America is always Superman/Batman.

STRAW-MAN.

Nobody has said anything about JFK, and nobody who knows what they're talking about thinks he was a good President, but he is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. He didn't 'start the war in Vietnam' anyway - American involvement in Indo-China predated his Presidency more than a decade, but appaz all those deaths are his fault now .

The only person who's committing gross reductionist fallacies in this thread is yourself (and the person you are having a conversation with, presumably also yourself, amirite?). I'm no fan of Churchill myself, but placing him on the same level as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, really demonstrates an inability to distinguish between just about anything at all. lol @ you thinking starving millions of your people and employing the most wasteful and idiotic economic policies 'changed the course of history of their people in a positive way' - any person who contradicted Stalin, or pointed out that his policies were ineffective, and proposed ways to actually help the Russian people, was killed by him. See Palchinsky:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gho...cuted_Engineer

1. Dnieper Dam Power Plant
Many engineers, including Peter Palchinsky warned the USSR not to rush and go ahead with the building of the dam. They argued that the water flow was ultimately going to be too slow and no good studies had been made of the flow patterns of surface and underground water in the area. Ultimately, 10,000 farmers were forced out of their farmland with little or no compensation, and those who did not volunteer to work on the project were forced to do so. As the project proceeded, it fell behind on schedule and grossly exceeded the estimated costs. Worker needs were neglected and they lived and worked under unbearable conditions. Destroyed and rebuilt twice after World War II, it has been expanded several times and is still in operation today as one of six hydroelectric dams on the Dnieper River.

3. White Sea Canal
The building of the White Sea Canal was described as a complete nightmare. It ignored the engineering principles of Palchinsky and was also an obscene violation of human rights. Almost all workers were prisoners and more than 200,000 died during construction. The Canal would freeze half the year, and water was too low in the dry summers. The Canal failed to live up to its specifications from the beginning. After World War II, the entire canal was rebuilt, running parallel to the first one.

Dat positive influence on the Russian people

[Oly BC]

Cubans inside and outside Cuba hate Che and Fidel, for how shit they made Cuba. It actually used to be a nice place. Now it is a 3rd world hell hole where the secret police take you away forever if you say anything slightly against the government.

You're probably trolling.

I'm no fan of Churchill myself, but placing him on the same level as Hitler, Stalin and Mao, really demonstrates an inability to distinguish between just about anything at all.

Churchill was in favor of chemical warfare and was considered an out of touch nationalist before WW2
At that point Britain was an Empire, literally, and it taught its people it had some sort of divine right to rule over distant lands.

lol @ you thinking starving millions of your people and employing the most wasteful and idiotic economic policies 'changed the course of history of their people in a positive way' - any person who contradicted Stalin, or pointed out that his policies were ineffective, and proposed ways to actually help the Russian people, was killed by him.

Ended up as the 2nd largest economy in the world. Didn't start as the 2nd largest economy in the world.

[Nick Young]

You're probably trolling.

Do you know any Cubans? Have you ever been there? Two of my Great Grandparents are from there. You don't know jack shit about this.

Che is a murdering sociopath. So is Fidel. Even today people get taken away and murdered by police if they say the wrong thing to foreign tourists. Neighbors snitch eachother out because if they don't they might get in trouble too simply for living close to the guy who talked out.

Before Fidel and Che got to Cuba, it was probably the most modern country in the Caribean with the highest standard of living. Now it is a third world shit hole where everyone still drives cars from the 1950s.

[Dresta]

Churchill was in favor of chemical warfare and was considered an out of touch nationalist before WW2
At that point Britain was an Empire, literally, and it taught its people it had some sort of divine right to rule over distant lands.


Ended up as the 2nd largest economy in the world. Didn't start as the 2nd largest economy in the world.

What does that have to do with anything? All the European countries had Empires, and if Britain didn't colonise a country then a different European country would. And i assure you, British rule was certainly more benign than living under the French. The expansion of European power is also what ended worldwide barbaric practices such as slavery, which, until Europe industrialised, were the norm throughout the world. Funny that with all your berating of America in here, that it was America's growth into a dominant world power that effectively ended European colonialism. You are contradicting yourself with every post. Stop being such an ahistorical douchebag.

lol @ you accusing other people of being reductionist and then posting that idiotically simplistic and naive final paragraph there. Any idiot should know correlation doesn't equal causation, but there you are using mere correlation as the summa of your entire argument. Moron.

[zoom17]

Why do threads like this always get off topic and heated

[Dresta]

Why do threads like this always get off topic and heated

Because kids who sit around all day fapping in their Che Guevara t-shirts are getting all uppity and shit like they actually know something about the world, and using their 'expert' historical knowledge to equate Lincoln and Jefferson with Mao, Hitler and Stalin, then acting like they are some prized elite who know all about American 'crimes', as if everyone else were denying US officials and politicians ever did committed any abhorrent acts.

[Nick Young]

Why do threads like this always get off topic and heated

because retards try to rewrite history in order to justiy their cool guy Mao and Che shirts.

There is some jackass who pranced around at my uni decked in a che star hat and a pro-Mao Zedong shirt. Mao starved 70 million of his own people to death. How can some retard kid idolize these mass murderers Che, Mao and Stalin? Sadly there are many out there who do.

[Oly BC]

lol @ you accusing other people of being reductionist and then posting that idiotically simplistic and naive final paragraph there. Any idiot should know correlation doesn't equal causation, but there you are using mere correlation as the summa of your entire argument. Moron.

employing the most wasteful and idiotic economic policies

You don't even have correlation on your side. How bad must your argument be?

Do you know any Cubans? Have you ever been there? Two of my Great Grandparents are from there. You don't know jack shit about this.

I know that data is not the plural of anecdotes. There is a very well known Cuban anti-government blogger Yoanni Sancez (and she's one of many). So the sensationalist "say anything and they take you away forever" drivel is nothing more than that.

Cuba had the large income disparity that is common in the area. Some people lived well, others didn't. Nowadays it's not a hellhole but still has a high standard of living when compared to other countries in the area.




But it's ok guys, some of us have no reason to feel insecure about our level of intelligence and understanding of world politics. I understand that you do so no hard feelings for those insults there.

[zoom17]

Because kids who sit around all day fapping in their Che Guevara t-shirts are getting all uppity and shit like they actually know something about the world, and using their 'expert' historical knowledge to equate Lincoln and Jefferson with Mao, Hitler and Stalin, then acting like they are some prized elite who know all about American 'crimes', as if everyone else were denying US officials and politicians ever did committed any abhorrent acts.

pretty much sums up this thread

[travelingman]

Why? Do you think he was a hero or some kind of role model? It's inexplicable to me. It would be like wearing an Osama Bin Laden shirt or a Heinrich Himmler poster.

That last example would be weird anyway since nobody wears posters.

[hookul]

And you sound like a typical American detached from reality and the crimes your nation has commited on itself and other countries over the centuries.Stalin was voted the third greatest Russian in history in 2008 by the Russian public. And he wasnt even Russian . I know you would like to think that Russians would have voted for Gorbachov, Baryshnikov, ***** Riot or Kasparov......but actually, the Russians are more likely to vote for strong political figures that made them proud to be called Russian and not Western Puppets like the aforementioned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7802485.stm


Hitler is hated by Germans because he lost the war, Stalin won the war, the majority of Russians love him. Mao Ze Dong and Ho Chi Minh are also hated by many Chinese and Viets, but the majority love them for making their respecitve countries free and strong (never mind the lives lost). Americans truly are the dumbest people in the world: and youre living proof. Lincoln declared war on his own countryman, and 600 000 people died as a result of it. Thats no different to the blood on any great leaders hands. He was a tyrant. A great historical figure. But also a mass murderer. Deal with it sonny.

Are you nuts? Hitler is hated by almost all Germans because he and his regime did unspeakeable things and any educated human being - which in todays world the German population mostly consists of - can only shutter when learning about hte things that have been done.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Viva Che!

[Overdrive]

Are you nuts? The German people hate Hitler because in hindsight his actions messed up Germany. At the time he was supported by the majority of population. He was democratically elected by the German people, and many supported the war effort to reclaim Germanys past glories. The only reason they hate him now is because they LOST. If they had won, no one would even speak about the terrible crimes he commited because it wouldnt be important.

You really think Hitler was worse than any other leader in history? I hate Hitler because he put my family in concentration camps, and murdered the rest. But I understand that this shit always happens. Do you think the indigenous people of Asia, Australia, Africa , the Middle East and South America hate Hitler? No they dont give a shit. Do you know who they do hate? They have their own Hitlers. People like the Spanish conquistators, the British military who killed millions and million, the French and Portugues (And of cors British), Slave traders, The American governemnt (Vietnam, Iraq). The leaders of these countries were exactly the same as Hitler in philosophy and cruelty. Ask an Iraqi who their Hitler is and see what the answer is.

Hitler is widely blamed for killing 6 million Jews in World War 2 right? Why doesnt anyone bring up the 4 million Bengali Muslims that Winston Churchill deliberatly starved to death in India at the same time? Why are Hitlers 6 millions Jews more important than the 4 million Bengalis? Why arent the 2 million Viets that the French under De Gaulle murdered not rememebered? We dont remember them because we live in a White Euro-Centric world where we feel only the deaths of Western Europeans are important.

Why doenst anyone talk about the 20 million Russians that died in ww2? The 20 million Chinese? the 6 million Poles? The 2 million Serbs? Why do we only commemorate D-Day, the Holocaust, and American/British involvements? Its politics mate.

Hitler-Churchill-Stalin-Lincoln-Bush same same

Don't get me wrong, I hate any autocratic system or the abuse of democratic systems in order to execute genocides on any kind of people, but what seperated Nazigermany and their allies from any other regime was their implementation of a "killing industry". Never has this been done before or after in that way.

Others throughout history killed millions by not helping or stormtropping innocent people, but Hitler killed people Luke cars are built. His concentration camps were basically destruction plants.

Regarding Ch