ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1965 Voting

[WillC]

Goose Tatum was more transcendent than Tarzan Cooper. His cultural significance was greater, and that counts for something (it's the same reason I'll be voting for Pete Maravich and Connie Hawkins in future rounds, probably over more successful players). That said, if we had more than 10 votes per round, I'd have voted for all three (Tatum, Cooper and Haynes), and indeed a lot of other players too.

I feel that the first round of voting was very restrictive. We could only choose 10 players from the first 69 years of basketball history, but then had 10 more votes for the next 5 years (I know some player spilled over into the second voting pool, but my point is still valid).

Hence, lots of players missed the cut who deserved to be voted into our Hall of Fame.

I'm not criticising. I've enjoyed the voting so far. I just think there are flaws to the format that need to be borne in mind.

[That_Admiral]

Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman

[kshutts1]

Edited my choices, thanks to some arguments, on the first reply.

[WillC]

Edited my choices, thanks to some arguments, on the first reply.

I recommend highlighting Neil Johnston in bold if you're voting for him, or it will probably go unnoticed.

[G.O.A.T]

Goose Tatum was more transcendent than Tarzan Cooper. His cultural significance was greater, and that counts for something (it's the same reason I'll be voting for Pete Maravich and Connie Hawkins in future rounds, probably over more successful players). That said, if we had more than 10 votes per round, I'd have voted for all three (Tatum, Cooper and Haynes), and indeed a lot of other players too.

I feel that the first round of voting was very restrictive. We could only choose 10 players from the first 69 years of basketball history, but then had 10 more votes for the next 5 years (I know some player spilled over into the second voting pool, but my point is still valid).

Hence, lots of players missed the cut who deserved to be voted into our Hall of Fame.

I'm not criticising. I've enjoyed the voting so far. I just think there are flaws to the format that need to be borne in mind.

Your criticism is welcomed. I think we can work out all the kinks and maybe redo the project in the future with a larger committee and a more tested format.

My reasoning for the limit on players you can select is to make this a more elite group of players. The best of the best. We can add honorable mention players (with no limit) in the second round of voting, plus I want to vote in coaches, pioneers and contributors. People who may not have been amongst the very best ever, but whose contributions to the game can not go unnoticed.

On the subject of Tatum vs. Cooper I disagree in terms of cultural significance. Though lesser known, in my research I find the contributions of the Harlem Rens far more significant than those of the Trotters. The Rens were a Black team, in a Black city with a Black owner and coach. The Trotters were a white-owned team from Chicago with an owner who used Harlem to make his team sound more urban. He (Abe Saperstein) also stole the idea and most of the players on the roster.

It was Cooper who would regularly embrace Original Celtics center Joe Lapchick before their black vs. white games. Tatum, while I don't mean to represent him poorly developed the "Clown Prince" reputation which served to marginalize Black athletes in the day.

Finally Cooper was a better player. His teams were dominant throughout his career. The Rens were the top team in the Country throughout the 1930's his prime years. When he peaked his mid-twenties the Rens were unbeatable and he was widely considered their MVP for many years.

I will lean on you more than anyone to make this project better Will C, so please do not refrain from offering your thoughts and suggestions.

Do you think we should re-do the Class of 1960 without voting limits? Perhaps after the first round of voting reaches the class of 2010? Should we ditch the ballot limits all together? Should we raise or lower the 60% requirement for induction?

[G.O.A.T]

Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman

If you'd like to participate, please tell us your age / favorite team and add a little something to your post so we know what your thoughts are.

I recommend highlighting Neil Johnston in bold if you're voting for him, or it will probably go unnoticed.

I got it, but bolding selections is recommended to avoid my inevitable errors.

[WillC]

Your criticism is welcomed. I think we can work out all the kinks and maybe redo the project in the future with a larger committee and a more tested format.

My reasoning for the limit on players you can select is to make this a more elite group of players. The best of the best. We can add honorable mention players (with no limit) in the second round of voting, plus I want to vote in coaches, pioneers and contributors. People who may not have been amongst the very best ever, but whose contributions to the game can not go unnoticed.

On the subject of Tatum vs. Cooper I disagree in terms of cultural significance. Though lesser known, in my research I find the contributions of the Harlem Rens far more significant than those of the Trotters. The Rens were a Black team, in a Black city with a Black owner and coach. The Trotters were a white-owned team from Chicago with an owner who used Harlem to make his team sound more urban. He (Abe Saperstein) also stole the idea and most of the players on the roster.

It was Cooper who would regularly embrace Original Celtics center Joe Lapchick before their black vs. white games. Tatum, while I don't mean to represent him poorly developed the "Clown Prince" reputation which served to marginalize Black athletes in the day.

Finally Cooper was a better player. His teams were dominant throughout his career. The Rens were the top team in the Country throughout the 1930's his prime years. When he peaked his mid-twenties the Rens were unbeatable and he was widely considered their MVP for many years.

I will lean on you more than anyone to make this project better Will C, so please do not refrain from offering your thoughts and suggestions.

Do you think we should re-do the Class of 1960 without voting limits? Perhaps after the first round of voting reaches the class of 2010? Should we ditch the ballot limits all together? Should we raise or lower the 60% requirement for induction?

I have read plenty about Goose Tatum but didn't write down the quotes, unfortunately. I could dig them out if I had time. Instead, for now, this documentary trailer is pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2laD1yBLHk

The quotes below are from that documentary:

"Goose Tatum was special. He was the most influential person on the planet in the world of sport's entertainment"

"He may have been the first basketball player who transcended the game"

Jerry West: "He [Tatum] was one of the unique innovators of the sport"

"Goose Tatum in the African American community was like Babe Ruth was to the white community"

Oscar Robertson: "He [Tatum] was an inspiration for a lot of people. He was a beacon of light"

Now, whether he deserves to be voted into our Hall of Fame really depends on your criteria. He certainly makes it as a pioneer. I must admit, I was unaware (until yesterday) that we were voting based on professional careers (I like your criteria of successful individually and as part of a team). I voted for Hank Luisetti in the first round based on i) his college career, and ii) impact on the sport (i.e. he was an influential pioneer). I'd be more than happy to vote for Luisetti and Tatum as pioneers instead.

I'm not trying to diminish Tarzan Cooper's achievements; like I said, I'd be very happy to vote him in, I just ran out of votes. He was certainly a better player (relative to his peers) than later African American pioneers such as Earl Lloyd and, therefore, very deserving of a Hall of Fame selection. I still disagree with you about which player (Cooper or Tatum) had a greater cultural significance. You argument is more about the Rens vs Globetrotters rather than Cooper vs Tatum. I'd argue that Pop Gates was just as relevant, important and significant as Cooper. But Tatum transcended the game, by all accounts. You admitted yourself that he was more well known. That has to count for something. It's the same reason I'd vote for Vince Carter into the Hall of Fame over, say, Joe Johnson (there are probably better examples but that's the first one that came to mind).

There are actually relatively few Springfield Hall of Fame inductees whose selections I disagree with. Bob Houbregs was a weak choice. I can see the merits for most other selections though.

If we did something like this again, I'd be keen to make it 100% clear what our selection criteria is from day one.

That said, I'm happy to continue as I think it creates some good discussion and we can always do it again (with some refinement) at a later date.

[Gotterdammerung]

Paul Arizin
Great Scoring and rebounding small forward like Yardley but dogshit on defense. Slow footer jump shooter.

Bob Cousy
Couldn't shoot or play defense but spearheaded a high powered fast break.

Slater Martin
A premier point guard in the Cousy class. Martin was smart and quick, had an accurate shot and made accurate entry passes to Mikan on the block.

Dick McGuire
Excellent pure passing guard for the early 50s NY Knicks.

Bob Pettit
The best player of the Hall of Fame class: ferocious rebounder and multifaceted scorer: one hand sets and mid range shots, put backs and strong drives. Decent passer and physical defender. Most important is that the higher the stakes the better Pettit played.

Frank Ramsey
This clutch shooting 6' 3" jackrabbit was Auerbach's experiment and the model for all subsequent sixth man scorers: he always drew fouls and improved his numbers in the playoffs.

Dolph Schayes
Extremely physical forward who perfected both outside scoring with a high arcing two hand set shot and a reckless slashing game that sent him to the line and hit his free throws at league leading percentage. Shrewd passing and stubborn rebounding rounded out his game. Tho Schayes wasn't quick on defense he beat up his opponents.

Interesting enough, Schayes flourished in both eras, before the shot clock and afterwards.

Bill Sharman
Probably the best scorer and defender in the guard position after MJ. A gifted athlete with a deadly one hand shot that executed Auerbach's plays perfectly. But his defense was legendary among his contemporaries: strong, quick and resilient. He hit the clutch shots and defended the high scoring perimeter guy.

From the 1960s class:
Neil Johnston

[WillC]

Bob Cousy
Couldn't shoot or play defense but spearheaded a high powered fast break.

Slater Martin
A premier point guard in the Cousy class. Martin was smart and quick, had an accurate shot and made accurate entry passes to Mikan on the block.

Cousy was a better shooter than Martin.

Bill Sharman
Probably the best scorer and defender in the guard position after MJ.

Along with Jerry West :)

[magnax1]

Paul Arizin
Bob Cousy
Bob Pettit
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
Kind of want to add Yardley and Davies but I'm not going to. Kind of Meh on Sharman because Yardley and Davies probably were better in their prime, but Ill still give it to him.

[G.O.A.T]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?

[L.Kizzle]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?

Sharman was easily the 2nd best guard if the 50s (and top shooting guard overall). Only Bob Davies has a say so for that spot and he only played half the decade.

Parish Worthy Dandridge and White were never the second best at their position for a decade or even a year. Maybe Dandridge though.

[WillC]

Does anyone else have any thoughts/feelings on what our collective criteria for admittance should be...

If Sharman gets in, does that mean guys like Parish, Worthy, Dandridge, Jo Jo White get in?

For those who voted for Sharman, what was it they made him more like Cousy, Pettit, Schayes than Martin, Johnston and Yardley?

It's hard to leave Sharman out. All-League 1st Team Selections, NBA championship success, excellent offensive and defensive player - what's not to like?

[That_Admiral]

If you'd like to participate, please tell us your age / favorite team and add a little something to your post so we know what your thoughts are.

Oh sorry about that, 19, Boston Celtics.

Bob Cousy - essentially one of the first legends of the Celtics and the top PG of his time until the Big O arrived
Bob Pettit - the greatest PF of his time, great rebounder and great scorer
Bill Sharman - amazing SG for the Celtics before Sam Jones arrived, terrific FT shooter, ranked 11th till this date

i would also like to retract my vote of Dolph Schayes sorry

[L.Kizzle]

Oh sorry about that, 19, Boston Celtics.

Bob Cousy - essentially one of the first legends of the Celtics and like the top PG of his time until the Big O arrived
Bob Pettit - the greatest PF of his time, great rebounder and great scorer
Bill Sharman - amazing SG for the Celtics before Sam Jones arrived, terrific FT shooter, ranked 11th till this date

i would also like to retract my vote of Dolph Schayes sorry

Why no Schayes? Dolph was the best forward for the decade of the 1950s. He was successful pre shot clock Mikan era all the way til Jerry West. He was an all star in 1962 the season of Big O triple double and Wilts triple digit game. 12 all league and 12 all stars not to mention an NBA title.

Off the new guys it goes
Pettit and Cousy at 1 spot.
Schayes next
Arizin than
Sharman