ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1965 Voting

[That_Admiral]

Why no Schayes? Dolph was the best forward for the decade of the 1950s. He was successful pre shot clock Mikan era all the way til Jerry West. He was an all star in 1962 the season of Big O triple double and Wilts triple digit game. 12 all league and 12 all stars not to mention an NBA title.

Off the new guys it goes
Pettit and Cousy at 1 spot.
Schayes next
Arizin than
Sharman

I know Schayes was great and I've heard many great things about him. But i personally haven't seen of his plays or games. And so I thought it would be unfair of me to put him in my vote just because I know his name. Nothing against him though. But thank you for informing me more of his accolades

[WillC]

I know Schayes was great and I've heard many great things about him. But i personally haven't seen of his plays or games. And so I thought it would be unfair of me to put him in my vote just because I know his name. Nothing against him though. But thank you for informing me more of his accolades

So you refuse to vote for someone that you haven't seen play? In that case, perhaps it's best to either refrain from voting altogether or rethink your voting strategy. After all, not many of us have driven a Ferrari, but we could still safely judge it to be one of the best car manufacturers around. In other words, it's perfectly possible to judge something based upon what we have read and researched, without necessarily having first hand experience of whatever it is we are judging.

If you don't know enough about Schayes to understand why he's an absolute lock for any basketball Hall of Fame, then it might be best not to participate in the voting.

Schayes was a 12-time All-Star, 6-time All-NBA 1st Team, 6-time All-NBA 2nd Team, the best player in an NBA championship team and retired as the game's all-time leading scorer.

What more do you want?

[G.O.A.T]

So you refuse to vote for someone that you haven't seen play? In that case, perhaps it's best to either refrain from voting altogether or rethink your voting strategy. After all, not many of us have driven a Ferrari, but we could still safely judge it to be one of the best car manufacturers around. In other words, it's perfectly possible to judge something based upon what we have read and researched, without necessarily having first hand experience of whatever it is we are judging.

If you don't know enough about Schayes to understand why he's an absolute lock for any basketball Hall of Fame, then it might be best not to participate in the voting.

Schayes was a 12-time All-Star, 6-time All-NBA 1st Team, 6-time All-NBA 2nd Team, the best player in an NBA championship team and retired as the game's all-time leading scorer.

What more do you want?

I have to agree. Unless someone objects, I'm not going count admiral's votes for this round. I would advise anyone who does not feel informed enough to vote to refrain from doing so, but would also encourage them to ask questions within the thread. A lot of people here have a lot of knowledge as well as links to sources which can allow all of us to increase our individual and collective understanding of players that none of us have seen play live.

[WillC]

As far as I'm aware, Dolph Schayes is also the only player to have led the NBA in RPG and FT% (in one season or another).

He never led the league in PPG, but finished second in 1957-58.

Kevin Love eat your heart out.

[L.Kizzle]

He was also the first NBA ironman until AC Green some 50 years later than eventually Andre Miller I belive broke that record. He played with a cast on his arm for over half a season.

[G.O.A.T]

He was also the first NBA ironman until AC Green some 50 years later than eventually Andre Miller I belive broke that record. He played with a cast on his arm for over half a season.

Green still has it. He broke Randy Smith's record, who broke Red Kerr's record who broke Schayes record.

[L.Kizzle]

Green still has it. He broke Randy Smith's record, who broke Red Kerr's record who broke Schayes record.

What the hell record did Andre Miller have last year that was over once coach Shaw didn't play him? I thought it was that record?

[G.O.A.T]

What the hell record did Andre Miller have last year that was over once coach Shaw didn't play him? I thought it was that record?

Not sure. Maybe consecutive home games? Longest active streak? He missed a few games in '07 and one in 2011. He is an iron-man for sure, I don't know of the record you are referring to though.

[dankok8]

Players eligible for the first time

Paul Arizin - Pitchin' Paul brought the modern jump shot into the game, great scorer led the Warriors to '56 title. LOCK

Bob Cousy - 1957 MVP and six time NBA Champion was the first superstar guard in the NBA. LOCK

Larry Foust - Bruising blue-collar center led Pistons to back-to-back finals in 1955 & 1956. Don't know if he was good enough, never even eclipsed 20 ppg and wasn't really an elite rebounder either.

Clyde Lovellette - Member of three NBA Champions and one of the first 20-10 centers in the NBA. Seems woefully underrated back then with just 4 all-star games. Enforcer of the era who instilled fear in his opponents and played physical defense.

Slater Martin - Top guard for the Lakers during the Mikan years and the Hawks during the Pettit years. Great defender and feeder. Nope

Dick McGuire - Widely respected point guard for 1950's Knicks could do it all and never looked for his own shot. Nope

Bob Pettit - Two-Time MVP scored 50 points in decisive game six in 1958 Finals. LOCK

Frank Ramsey - One of the first great sixth men, Ramsey led the Celtics in scoring during their 1959 title run. Nope.

Dolph Schayes - NBA's original Iron Man, 12-time All-NBA selection and the best player on the 1955 Champs. LOCK

Bill Sharman - Dead eye marksman, diligent defender and ahead of his time in terms of health and conditioning. LOCK

Gene Shue - All-NBA guard for the Pistons would later become revered coach. Only 2-3 years playing on a high level. Heavily leaning towards no.

George Yardley - "YardBird" was a high scoring wing player and all-NBA selection in 1957 & 1958 who played the game with style. Very short prime... still undecided

Players still eligible after receiving multiple votes in the previous class

Charles "Tarzan" Cooper
Bob Davies - won MVP, led a team to a title, probably the greatest player other than Mikan in the 50's and the guy seen as Cousy's main rival at guard
LeRoy "Cowboy" Edwards
Harry Gallatin
Pops Gates
Marcus Haynes
Nat Holman
Neil Johnston - NBA champ, 4x 1st team, 3 scoring titles, 3 FG% titles, 1 rebounding title, really a great big man of that era
Cumberland Posey
Arnie Risen
Goose Tatum

I just don't see role players who won titles as HOFers. So I won't be voting for Slater Martin, Frank Ramsey, and in later projects guys like KC Jones and Tom Sanders. Ultimately role players are really very replaceable and they shouldn't make the HOF solely by finding themselves in a great situation.

I'm reserving my final two spots. Two guys that really seem like frontrunners are Foust and Yardley.

[kshutts1]

Did a final edit to add Davies and make Johnston bold, even though you caught it. Thanks for pointing out my error, WillC.

If it's too late in voting to add Davies, I understand.

[L.Kizzle]

Slater Martin was a little bit better than a role player. He wasn't exactly Frank Ramsey.

[WillC]

Slater Martin was a little bit better than a role player. He wasn't exactly Frank Ramsey.

I agree with you about Martin; he was a top 3 or 4 point guard of his era. Not as good as Cousy but on a par with McGuire and perhaps a notch above Wanzer.

But Ramsey was no slouch. On another team he might have been The Man.

[L.Kizzle]

I agree with you about Martin; he was a top 3 or 4 point guard of his era. Not as good as Cousy but on a par with McGuire and perhaps a notch above Wanzer.

But Ramsey was no slouch. On another team he might have been The Man.

No doubt about Ramsey, but he was a role player in the since.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm glad people already best me to the punch with Slater Martin.

First let me thank and welcome dankok8 to the project. I think he (assuming) will be an excellent addition.

I can't say I was surprised as I once held the same view, but seeing Bill Sharman categorized as a "lock" and Slater Martin categorized as a "role player" does strike me as illogical.

They are basically the same age, Martin's career began one year earlier than Sharman's largely because Sharman was a dual-sport athlete.

I have Sharman ranked higher, and it's on the basis of his shooting and scoring, but those are the only areas of the game he enjoys any distinct advantage over Martin. Martin, despite being smaller was his equal as a rebounder and defender, and actually guarded the better guards (Davies, Cousy, Phillp, McGuire) than did Sharman, whose competition amongst non-primary ball handlers was considerably less formidable. He was a better playmaker/feeder and unlike Sharman who played in an up-tempo system that bolstered his stats, Martin in Minneapolis and St. Louis played in methodical systems keyed on patience getting the ball inside to the two best front lines of the 50's.

In terms of resume, they are remarkably close. Sharman made one more all-star game and Martin won one more Championship in one more Finals appearance. Both played in eight semifinal series in their eleven seasons and each was a key cog on every team. Both have five all-NBA selections, Sharman has three first team, Martin none, but Sharmans three nods came in the first three seasons the NBA distinguished the selections by position. In each of those seasons (1956-58) Sharman received the second most all-NBA votes amongst guards and Martin the third most. Both trailed Cousy. That shows a pretty clear line of delineation and if Sharman was a lock, Martin is the next closest thing from that era. In terms of all-defensive selections, there were none at the time, but when I researched the players retroactively I have each Sharman with three first team selections and two second team and Martin with four first team selections and one second team.

Sharman is going to get in, and I am okay with that, but I hope when the honorable mention round comes around that anyone who voted Sharman in will also support Martin as the next best thing.

Another few Hours and we will move on to the next class. Any last minute votes or joiners to the project?

[WillC]

If we had more votes, I'd have selected Martin too. What I find interesting is that, when former players pass away, you can find out a lot about a player from the outpouring of comments that follow, i.e. from ex-teammates, fans, etc.

I distinctly remember (but am too lazy to look it up) that the comments about Martin were particularly positive, which is no surprise because he was indeed an excellent player and certainly one of the best defenders of his era (the word 'pesky' was used a few times, I believe).

However, despite being a big fan of Martin's achievements, I had never considered how close he was to Sharman until now. That is a very interesting comparison.