People need to stop putting 60s players in time machines

[rlsmooth775]

These old school fanboys need to realize time travel isn't possible and you can't put these guys in a era where they will be better trained. You can see In footage most of those guys couldn't play

[oarabbus]

Are you stupid? I'm not one of those "60s players were GOAT" people but you're incredibly dumb if you think those guys couldn't do crossovers, behind the back, all that shit. It wasn't allowed in the rules back then :

[Kvnzhangyay]

Are you stupid? I'm not one of those "60s players were GOAT" people but you're incredibly dumb if you think those guys couldn't do crossovers, behind the back, all that shit. It wasn't allowed in the rules back then :

We will never know

[LAZERUSS]

These old school fanboys need to realize time travel isn't possible and you can't put these guys in a era where they will be better trained. You can see In footage most of those guys couldn't play

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qv0YS1wHoQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfkalgtZraE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

[J Shuttlesworth]

You could put Jordan/Kobe/LeBron/Durant in a time machine and they all become turnover machines being called for constant carries

[Fudge]

OP, just put your helmet on, you ugly, retarded ***.

[SuperPippen]

You could take Jerry West as the exact player he was in the 60's and 70's - with no modern training - transport him to the present, and he would still be an All-Star. Of that I have no doubt.

You could definitely say that about guys like Wilt and Oscar, well.

[CavaliersFTW]

Are you stupid? I'm not one of those "60s players were GOAT" people but you're incredibly dumb if you think those guys couldn't do crossovers, behind the back, all that shit. It wasn't allowed in the rules back then :

they could and did do all those moves actually it just was more difficult to do some of the moves being that you couldn't touch the side of the ball. Such as crossing over, this was a move practically everyone did in the open court to avoid the defender. As an isolation move however, it was pretty difficult/not very effective back then. Given that to force the ball urgently in the other direction from a stationary position there is a tendency to push it from the side, carrying. If you don't do this, chances are you won't sell the fake... so most ball handlers rightfully just didn't depend on the move like guards can and do today, under todays rules given that players are allowed to push the ball from the side it's now become an effective move. The Harlem Globetrotters and Pistol Pete pushed the limits of what was possible without palming/carrying violations in that era, they kept the ball on a string and could do almost anything with it. Proof that most all the ball handling moves of today existed back then in some form or another, it just was much more difficult to execute them. Double crossovers and the like couldn't become commonplace moves among grade school kids and average basketball talent until palming/carrying got ignored.

[rlsmooth775]

Are you stupid? I'm not one of those "60s players were GOAT" people but you're incredibly dumb if you think those guys couldn't do crossovers, behind the back, all that shit. It wasn't allowed in the rules back then :

Who said anything about crossovers and behind the back

[rlsmooth775]

The average player in the 60s doesn't compare to later generations.

[Dr.J4ever]

they could and did do all those moves actually it just was more difficult to do some of the moves being that you couldn't touch the side of the ball. Such as crossing over, this was a move practically everyone did in the open court to avoid the defender. As an isolation move however, it was pretty difficult/not very effective back then. Given that to force the ball urgently in the other direction from a stationary position there is a tendency to push it from the side, carrying. If you don't do this, chances are you won't sell the fake... so most ball handlers rightfully just didn't depend on the move like guards can and do today, under todays rules given that players are allowed to push the ball from the side it's now become an effective move. The Harlem Globetrotters and Pistol Pete pushed the limits of what was possible without palming/carrying violations in that era, they kept the ball on a string and could do almost anything with it. Proof that most all the ball handling moves of today existed back then in some form or another, it just was much more difficult to execute them. Double crossovers and the like couldn't become commonplace moves among grade school kids and average basketball talent until palming/carrying got ignored.

The question is did the rules actually change or did the NBA's interpretation of the rules change? Did more creative players after the 60s show the NBA moves that weren't seen during the 60s, and thus force the league to call it palming, or let it go?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2010/1...ddenly-change/

I don't know if the rules changed. I'm not trolling. I'm just wondering. My guess is players back then just weren't very good with their handles compared to today's game. As the years went by, more imaginative players with great creativity started invading the NBA, and the NBA never saw anything like it. This forced the league to interpret these moves that might have been called palming in past years.

This is quite different to say that most players in the 60s knew about crossovers and such, but just didn't do it, because they were afraid that the NBA refs would call it palming.

Again, this is another part of what other posters have mentioned as the evolution of the sport.

[LAZERUSS]

The average player in the 60s doesn't compare to later generations.

Really?

I want you to take a look at the rosters of the teams in the '67 season, and closely study the players' careers, and tell me that you honestly believe that. The Lakers had the equivalent of the '13 Heat in terms of talent...and went 36-45.

Those teams were LOADED with players that would have good-to-great NBA careers.

[inclinerator]

we may not be able to time travel but we can simulate these game to 100 percent accuracy in a few decades

[CavaliersFTW]

The question is did the rules actually change or did the NBA's interpretation of the rules change? Did more creative players after the 60s show the NBA moves that weren't seen during the 60s, and thus force the league to call it palming, or let it go?

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2010/1...ddenly-change/

I don't know if the rules changed. I'm not trolling. I'm just wondering. My guess is players back then just weren't very good with their handles compared to today's game. As the years went by, more imaginative players with great creativity started invading the NBA, and the NBA never saw anything like it. This forced the league to interpret these moves that might have been called palming in past years.

This is quite different to say that most players in the 60s knew about crossovers and such, but just didn't do it, because they were afraid that the NBA refs would call it palming.

Again, this is another part of what other posters have mentioned as the evolution of the sport.

You are not disagreeing with me, you are stating the exact same thing I've always said. Call it a re-interpretation or a change, it doesn't matter, you must still realize if you put Allen Iverson back in the 60's he'd get whistled for carrying, call it a rule re-interpretation or a rule change all you wish it's still a violation in one era, and not a violation in another.

Here's some of what I've noted through my observations of testimony, film, etc of the less-obvious rule changes or if you prefer, rule re-interpretations, and who I feel were the prominent game-changers of some of them:

*Walking/traveling: No gather steps alotted in the 1940's and early 1950's, walking used to be called 25 times a game according to some early 50's players. It's not because they were simply terrible, it's because moving with the ball of any sort without an active dribble just wasn't tolerated, I'm referring to "gather steps". 1.5 steps from the late 1950's to the 1980's due to the arrival I'd imagine of star forwards like Elgin Baylor (there are articles from the early 60's where Red Aurbach complains about Elgin's constant "traveling" when driving inside), 2 steps from the 90's-present era... Hakeem Olajuwon I think changed the whole game for footwork allowed in the post, a lot of what he did with his hop steps and up and unders is more than "1.5 steps"... but it was given to him. Superstars like Jordan, Kobe, Wade and James pushing the envelope even further for wing players, with full head of steam drives through traffic with 2 dribbles or less from the 3 point line.

*Charges: The game was once called in favor of defenders, ANY contact of the offensive players shoulders or elbow into the chest of a defender was once a charge. Even light contact. To further impede drives inside there was also NO no-charge zone... you couldn't charge into a defender planted right under the basket without risking on offensive charge. This is not the case today, if you don't get straight bulldozed you will not draw an offensive charge today. And if the offensive player actually completes a dunk over you sometimes the charge will be ignored anyways. Entertainment is the leagues priority, and offensive finishes in traffic are highlight material, not charges. I am not sure when this shift began or what players caused it but I would imagine the Jordan era would be a likely era to look for the shift.

*Hanging on the rim: From the start, you couldn't hang on the rim, it was a violation. Pretty much because hoops would be destroyed if you did. Gus Johnson destroyed 3 hoops in the 60's, Wilt destroyed one, and none of those guys hung on the rim. Darryl Dawkins came into the league in the 1970's and in rapid succession destroyed 3 backboards and forced the league to consider re-evaluating how they constructed hoops. They developed the break-away hoop. Now players could throw their weight into a hoop without breaking it. This turned into hanging on the rim as the players added a flashy dramatic little twist or turn under the newly constructed rims after a satisfying stuff. Hanging on the rim as a violation became more or less moot and is now rarely ever called as a violation, and players do it all the time.

*Carrying/palming: Rules were clear, palms straight up and down. Players obeyed this, even the Harlem Globetrotters obeyed this. I personally believe Michael Jordan and Allen Iverson had the most impact on this rule. Jordan had hands the size of a center, but was the face of the league playing guard for 15 years in the media age. His hands meant he was pretty much at least appearing to palm the ball no matter what. Allen Iverson came into the league post-MJ era when the league was hunting for new stars to showcase with some electric playground moves.... moves that required carrying to be ignored in order to be effective on an NBA court, like his patented double-crossover. He literally would sweep the ball back in the original direction with his hands on the side of the ball. League eventually stopped calling it. Simple as that. Players like Kyrie are pushing the envelope even further now with the amount of time spent in hesitation. For example Fiba refs whistle him on a shamgod-like move he gets away with on the Cavs repeatedly.

[Dr.J4ever]

You are not disagreeing with me, you are stating the exact same thing I've always said. Call it a re-interpretation or a change, it doesn't matter, you must still realize if you put Allen Iverson back in the 60's he'd get whistled for carrying, call it a rule re-interpretation or a rule change all you wish it's still a violation in one era, and not a violation in another.

Here's some of what I've noted through my observations of testimony, film, etc of the less-obvious rule changes or if you prefer, rule re-interpretations, and who I feel were the prominent game-changers of some of them:

*Walking/traveling: No gather steps alotted in the 1940's and early 1950's, walking used to be called 25 times a game according to some early 50's players. It's not because they were simply terrible, it's because moving with the ball of any sort without an active dribble just wasn't tolerated, I'm referring to "gather steps". 1.5 steps from the late 1950's to the 1980's due to the arrival I'd imagine of star forwards like Elgin Baylor (there are articles from the early 60's where Red Aurbach complains about Elgin's constant "traveling" when driving inside), 2 steps from the 90's-present era... Hakeem Olajuwon I think changed the whole game for footwork allowed in the post, a lot of what he did with his hop steps and up and unders is more than "1.5 steps"... but it was given to him. Superstars like Jordan, Kobe, Wade and James pushing the envelope even further for wing players, with full head of steam drives through traffic with 2 dribbles or less from the 3 point line.

*Charges: The game was once called in favor of defenders, ANY contact of the offensive players shoulders or elbow into the chest of a defender was once a charge. Even light contact. To further impede drives inside there was also NO no-charge zone... you couldn't charge into a defender planted right under the basket without risking on offensive charge. This is not the case today, if you don't get straight bulldozed you will not draw an offensive charge today. And if the offensive player actually completes a dunk over you sometimes the charge will be ignored anyways. Entertainment is the leagues priority, and offensive finishes in traffic are highlight material, not charges. I am not sure when this shift began or what players caused it but I would imagine the Jordan era would be a likely era to look for the shift.

*Hanging on the rim: From the start, you couldn't hang on the rim, it was a violation. Pretty much because hoops would be destroyed if you did. Gus Johnson destroyed 3 hoops in the 60's, Wilt destroyed one, and none of those guys hung on the rim. Darryl Dawkins came into the league in the 1970's and in rapid succession destroyed 3 backboards and forced the league to consider re-evaluating how they constructed hoops. They developed the break-away hoop. Now players could throw their weight into a hoop without breaking it. This turned into hanging on the rim as the players added a flashy dramatic little twist or turn under the newly constructed rims after a satisfying stuff. Hanging on the rim as a violation became more or less moot and is now rarely ever called as a violation, and players do it all the time.

*Carrying/palming: Rules were clear, palms straight up and down. Players obeyed this, even the Harlem Globetrotters obeyed this. I personally believe Michael Jordan and Allen Iverson had the most impact on this rule. Jordan had hands the size of a center, but was the face of the league playing guard for 15 years in the media age. His hands meant he was pretty much at least appearing to palm the ball no matter what. Allen Iverson came into the league post-MJ era when the league was hunting for new stars to showcase with some electric playground moves.... moves that required carrying to be ignored in order to be effective on an NBA court, like his patented double-crossover. He literally would sweep the ball back in the original direction with his hands on the side of the ball. League eventually stopped calling it. Simple as that. Players like Kyrie are pushing the envelope even further now with the amount of time spent in hesitation. For example Fiba refs whistle him on a shamgod-like move he gets away with on the Cavs repeatedly.

Agree 100%.... But now this would tend to buttress many posters here, including me, who believe great players have "evolved" the game.

Many changes have occurred during the decades. Rule interpretations intermingled with more advanced players have fused to create the game we have today. This is why the game today is better in many aspects and worse in others.

So this is now undeniable.