Why are all these stories so simliar

[gigantes]

Jesus was a real dude but wasn't anything special in his life. It was years later that Christianity that became big time and what it is today

Paul- the greatest marketing agent ever

one of the big takeaways from my study of christianity and religion is that it really makes no difference whether the figure in question actually existed or not.

i mean, christianity (like most sets of mythologies) are basically guidelines on how to live, not technical breakthroughs that moved civilisation forward... altho they do have aspects of that. the flying spaghetti monster's disciples get that one.

[DonDadda59]

Jesus was a real dude but wasn't anything special in his life. It was years later that Christianity that became big time and what it is today



Paul- the greatest marketing agent ever

Boiled down, that's pretty much what happened. People overlook the fact that Paul never even met Jesus, yet his version of Christianity is what the masses follow now. The original followers of whoever 'Jesus' was based on (some Historians call them Ebionites, or Nazarene/Nazorene, Jewish-Christians, etc) fought fiercely against Paul's propaganda machine. They were adamant that Jesus was just a man, a wise and virtuous one who they believed was the prophesied messiah, but a man nonetheless. Not the virgin born, demi-god recycled pagan deity Paul was pushing.

Of course the Ebionites were deemed heretics (even though they were the original followers and actually knew the man, unlike Paul who never met him ), their writings were burned/suppressed, and they slowly faded away and were lost to History. Constantine caught on to Paul's movement, it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and took off from there.

[gigantes]

It could be if it gives good logic and evidence.

and the readers of somewhat skeptical nature feel special motivation to vet that idea.

[KingBeasley08]

Boiled down, that's pretty much what happened. People overlook the fact that Paul never even met Jesus, yet his version of Christianity is what the masses follow now. The original followers of whoever 'Jesus' was based on (some Historians call them Ebionites, or Nazarene/Nazorene, Jewish-Christians, etc) fought fiercely against Paul's propaganda machine. They were adamant that Jesus was just a man, a wise and virtuous one who they believed was the prophesied messiah, but a man nonetheless. Not the virgin born, demi-god recycled pagan deity Paul was pushing.

Of course the Ebionites were deemed heretics (even though they were the original followers and actually knew the man, unlike Paul who never met him ), their writings were burned/suppressed, and they slowly faded away and were lost to History. Constantine caught on to Paul's movement, it became the official religion of the Roman Empire and took off from there.

Yep Jesus was a pretty chill dude overall. I mean some of this shit he preached was a lil wack but overall just a old school version of a hippy. A lot of his messages have been straight up rewritten over time

Have only a decent grasp of history but wasn't there a meeting where Church and political leaders decided and edited the Bible to "finalize" the religion

one of the big takeaways from my study of christianity and religion is that it really makes no difference whether the figure in question actually existed or not.

i mean, christianity (like most sets of mythologies) are basically guidelines on how to live, not technical breakthroughs that moved civilisation forward... altho they do have aspects of that. the flying spaghetti monster's disciples get that one.

No doubt. I don't hate religion like many on this forum I actually think spirituality is important and believing in a higher calling can be psychologically healthy along with the fact that the Universe is full of secrets... I'm basically rambling but I'm trying to say I respect the purpose and need of religion. I just don't like when people use it as an excuse to commit atrocities (Medieval Christianity in the Inquisition and Crusades or Modern Islam with ISIS)

[gigantes]

Boiled down, that's pretty much what happened. People overlook the fact that Paul never even met Jesus, yet his version of Christianity is what the masses follow now. The original followers of whoever 'Jesus' was based on (some Historians call them Ebionites, or Nazarene/Nazorene, Jewish-Christians, etc) fought fiercely against Paul's propaganda machine. They were adamant that Jesus was just a man, a wise and virtuous one who they believed was the prophesied messiah, but a man nonetheless. Not the virgin born, demi-god recycled pagan deity Paul was pushing.

that's interesting. by "original followers" do you mean the essenes? what was the timeframe of the conflict?

[DonDadda59]

that's interesting. by "original followers" do you mean the essenes?

Yes, that's another name for the 'Jewish-Christians'. The Essene were the group who were believed to be based in Qumran who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were a splinter group cult that broke off from mainstream Judaism because they felt that corruption had taken over the temple leaders.

Interesting tidbit- there's a figure mentioned in the Scrolls known only as the Teacher of Righteousness who some Historians believe was the Historical 'Jesus'.

what was the timeframe of the conflict?

Which conflict? The Jewish-Christians vs the Pauline Christians? I think that one dates back as far as a few decades after Jesus supposedly died up until about the time of the Council of Nicea. So a few centuries.

[rezznor]

It's due to the Pauline Christians appropriating Pagan conventions and deities and synchronizing them with a relatively obscure cult centered around an executed Jewish messianic claimant. It was all a marketing scheme to attract 'gentiles' to a new movement. Considering what the end result ended up being, I'd say it is the most successful marketing campaign the world has ever seen (or maybe second to Apple )

yes. excellent marketing + gullible people. sounds very familiar in the present day..

[gigantes]

No doubt. I don't hate religion like many on this forum I actually think spirituality is important and believing in a higher calling can be psychologically healthy along with the fact that the Universe is full of secrets... I'm basically rambling but I'm trying to say I respect the purpose and need of religion. I just don't like when people use it as an excuse to commit atrocities (Medieval Christianity in the Inquisition and Crusades or Modern Islam with ISIS)

rock on, brokowski!

Yes, that's another name for the 'Jewish-Christians'. The Essene were the group who were believed to be based in Qumran who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were a splinter group cult that broke off from mainstream Judaism because they felt that corruption had taken over the temple leaders.

ah, thanks. it came back to me. use it or lose it, eh?

Which conflict? The Jewish-Christians vs the Pauline Christians? I think that one dates back as far as a few decades after Jesus supposedly died up until about the time of the Council of Nicea. So a few centuries.

haha that is so post-siddhartha

[iamgine]

That's a long-winded excuse for why not a single shred of Historical evidence exists mentioning Jesus contemporaneously. There was a much lesser known messianic claimant who lived about 100 years after Jesus supposedly did named Simon Bar Kokbah. He led a rebellion against the Roman dominance of Judea. Historians have found documents he wrote, coins he minted, mentions of him by other sources during his lifetime. Yet for Jesus, no one so much as wrote his name down when he was supposedly travelling around Judea walking on water, raising the dead, healing the blind, etc.

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

Just wanted to point out how ridiculous that was (from your link). So it's safe to conclude that the Quran is God's truth and Muhammad was really his most favorite prophet since psychos martyr themselves because of it? Even Falun Gong monks set themselves on fire because of their beliefs. That's some terribly faulty logic right there.

You're missing the point. The point of that paragraph was the existence of Jesus, not about how true the teachings are.

[DonDadda59]

You're missing the point. The point of that paragraph was the existence of Jesus, not about how true the teachings are.

Right and the assertion that people were willing to die/martyr themselves in Jesus' name was overwhelming proof of his Historical existence... which is a huge logical fallacy. That's just proof that they believed in Jesus enough to die for him, it's not proof he existed. Just because people believe something, even to the point of martyrdom, doesn't mean it's true. Is 9/11 proof that everything in the Quran is factual? Was it proof of Muhammad's historicity?

[iamgine]

Right and the assertion that people were willing to die/martyr themselves in Jesus' name was overwhelming proof of his Historical existence... which is a huge logical fallacy. That's just proof that they believed in Jesus enough to die for him, it's not proof he existed. Just because people believe something, even to the point of martyrdom, doesn't mean it's true. Is 9/11 proof that everything in the Quran is factual? Was it proof of Muhammad's historicity?

Timeline matters too. 9/11 is much different than, say, if thousands of people from Muhammad's own era was martyring themselves for him.

[DonDadda59]

Timeline matters too. 9/11 is much different than, say, if thousands of people from Muhammad's own era was martyring themselves for him.

Why?

Again, there's no Historical proof of a Jesus of Nazareth/Jesus Christ ever existing (especially not the Pagan God of the New Testament). So when exactly was his 'era'? How many of the people who martyred themselves/died in his name knew him personally or mentioned him in writing?

Since you brought up the 'era' issue- don't you find it just a tad bit strange that no one who was alive during his supposed magical acts and wanderings thought to write down what they saw? The earliest copies of the New Testament ever found date to around 200 CE, which would be about 170 years after he supposedly died.

Like I pointed out before- Historians have the personal writings of a messianic claimant from the same general time who is largely forgotten by History. But there isn't a single trace of a guy whose virgin birth was signaled by a rare star that caused the pilgrimage of 3 Kings from the East and instigated the wholesale slaughter of innocent children by another monarch... and whose later life was spent performing one miracle after another in front of large crowds... who came to the attention of both Jewish and Roman high ranking officials...

Yet not a peep in the record books (until long after he died, many of them being forgeries). You have to admit that is a bit odd, no?

[kNIOKAS]

So there was a doc on how Jesus was real, now here's an article how he's fictional... Did two acknowledge of eachother's claims?

[Dresta]

Agree that Paul was a massive piece of shite - **** that guy!

[gigantes]

Why?

Again, there's no Historical proof of a Jesus of Nazareth/Jesus Christ ever existing (especially not the Pagan God of the New Testament). So when exactly was his 'era'? How many of the people who martyred themselves/died in his name knew him personally or mentioned him in writing?

Since you brought up the 'era' issue- don't you find it just a tad bit strange that no one who was alive during his supposed magical acts and wanderings thought to write down what they saw? The earliest copies of the New Testament ever found date to around 200 CE, which would be about 170 years after he supposedly died.

Like I pointed out before- Historians have the personal writings of a messianic claimant from the same general time who is largely forgotten by History. But there isn't a single trace of a guy whose virgin birth was signaled by a rare star that caused the pilgrimage of 3 Kings from the East and instigated the wholesale slaughter of innocent children by another monarch... and whose later life was spent performing one miracle after another in front of large crowds... who came to the attention of both Jewish and Roman high ranking officials...

Yet not a peep in the record books (until long after he died, many of them being forgeries). You have to admit that is a bit odd, no?

well that just kicked ass