1996 Plus-Minus Data

[3ball]

Thanks to Flpiii's post in another forum, we have plus-minus data for 1996... http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/14257621/file.html

For 1996, Jordan led all players with +980, which is the largest +/- recorded since the data became available in 1994..


Top 10 +/- From 1996 Season

Jordan +980
Pippen +899
Kukocs +677
D. Robinson +625
Stockton +606
R. Harper +600
K. Malone +593
P. Hardaway +584
Rodman +581
Payton +577

11. Longley +520


With 5 players in the top 11, the 1996 Bulls are clearly the greatest team of all-time, and Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to lead the team with since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.



Top 10 +/- Scores from Entire Period (1994 to 2014)

1. 96 Jordan +980, +16.7, +15.2
2. 96 Pippen +899, +16.8, +11.8
3. 09 Lebron +871, +15, +21.2
4. 97 Jordan +818, +14, +9.7
5. 97 Pippen +807, +13.9, +9
6. 08 Pierce +784, +14.2, +9.8
7. 03 Nowitzki +778, +12.6, +20.4
8. 97 Hornacek +775, +15.9, +18
9. 97 Malone +768, +13.7, +16.3
10. 07 Duncan +746, +13.8, +14.5


This data wasn't even from his prime... So Jordan's the GOAT... Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

People often underrate scoring versatility, but this versatility is what allows a player to fit in better with teammates, have better takeover ability, be more clutch, and even dunk on guys much more often and in many more ways, as we saw with the GIF's of 100 chest-to-chest MJ posters.
.

[fpliii]

I'm surprised that Mike and Scottie guys from 96 are that much better than 97. MJ shed weight to deal with the tendonitis I believe, and looked the fastest he did since 93 (my first year watching).

But yeah, the dude was a bonafide beast.

[3ball]

yeah, the dude was a bonafide beast.

Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to use & lead the team with, since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.

Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Jordan's off-ball style is clearly the optimal style for a wing player to use & lead the team with, since it results in the most synergies and elevated play from stiffs like Longley and role players like Harper/Kukocs.

Lebron might get to 6 rings with his newest super-team, but it won't mean as much because he won all the rings by being able to play with experienced veterans right away, which gave him the advantage over other players that didn't get to skip the skip the player development stages like he did, or the ups and downs of having tenure with a team.

Dude you seriously got to stop being obsessed with Lebron. We get it, he's the GOAT SF and one of the top 10 greatest of all time, but seriously man no need to love him THAT much

[3ball]

Dude you seriously got to stop being obsessed with Lebron. We get it, he's the GOAT SF and one of the top 10 greatest of all time, but seriously man no need to love him THAT much

Look man, it's some great data... It's not my fault if ALL the data that keeps coming out only clearly indicates Jordan's vast superiority.

So don't blame me, blame the numbers - Jordan's the one that was a +980 in a single season at the age of 32, obliterating everyone else during the entire time period.

One can only wonder about his plus/minus from his prime years given that his post-prime years is already GOAT from the information we have.

[Cocaine80s]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness

[3ball]

OP rivaling Kennethgriffin in retardedness

The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus......

[HurricaneKid]

The numbers do the talking in this thread.

Let me know when Lebron has a +980 plus/minus......

08/09

http://www.82games.com/0809/08CLE9.HTM

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah I need to see how some of this stuff was calculated. Because 82 games has drastically different numbers for them (doesn't have it very far back though). Also, Basketball Reference has LeBron at +1017 for the 08-09 season.

[fpliii]

Yeah I need to see how some of this stuff was calculated. Because 82 games has drastically different numbers for them (doesn't have it very far back though). Also, Basketball Reference has LeBron at +1017 for the 08-09 season.

These are raw +/- numbers (point differential while on the floor)...82 games and B-R call this "On". This isn't on/off.

There are minor differences (82games has a difference of 2 from the OP's numbers) due to how possessions are calculated on different sites.

But yeah, there's definitely no question as to their validity (the original source for the 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 numbers is Harvey Pollack's Statistical Yearbooks, his team calculated based on the play-by-play sheets before they were digitalized starting in 96-97).

[ralph_i_el]

So what you're saying is MJ was only good because of Pippen and Kukocs?

[HurricaneKid]

These are raw +/- numbers (point differential while on the floor)...82 games and B-R call this "On". This isn't on/off.

There are minor differences (82games has a difference of 2 from the OP's numbers) due to how possessions are calculated on different sites.

But yeah, there's definitely no question as to their validity (the original source for the 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 numbers is Harvey Pollack's Statistical Yearbooks, his team calculated based on the play-by-play sheets before they were digitalized starting in 96-97).

Do have you sufficient data to recreate on/off?

How far off are we from RAPM data?

[fpliii]

Do have you sufficient data to recreate on/off?

How far off are we from RAPM data?

Yeah, lorak of RealGM put one together (since we have the pace numbers, we know the number of possessions played, and can calculate on/off). League-wide data starts in 93-94 (look at the "Net" column):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1672058251

He also included data for earlier seasons (the guides I have for the Sixers have on/off numbers going pretty far back...I have all post-merger guides, not sure how far back it goes, but I'll pick up more and find out).

[HurricaneKid]

Yeah, lorak of RealGM put one together (since we have the pace numbers, we know the number of possessions played, and can calculate on/off). League-wide data starts in 93-94 (look at the "Net" column):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1672058251

He also included data for earlier seasons (the guides I have for the Sixers have on/off numbers going pretty far back...I have all post-merger guides, not sure how far back it goes, but I'll pick up more and find out).

I'm going to assume you gave me the wrong link since it was just 76ers which makes it a very limited data set.

There are a few rounding concerns, but if Jordan was +980, the Bulls were +29 without him

(they were ~13.3 pts/gm better (this is where the rounding concerns are) X82 games = 1009 points, 1009-980 = 29 points)

This would make him +951 which is mighty impressive considering most believe he was past his peak play by then.

I'd love to see some of the late 80s/early 90s figures.

[fpliii]

I'm going to assume you gave me the wrong link since it was just 76ers which makes it a very limited data set.

There are a few rounding concerns, but if Jordan was +980, the Bulls were +29 without him

(they were ~13.3 pts/gm better (this is where the rounding concerns are) X82 games = 1009 points, 1009-980 = 29 points)

This would make him +951 which is mighty impressive considering most believe he was past his peak play by then.

I'd love to see some of the late 80s/early 90s figures.

88-93 is just the Sixers, scroll down and the league-wide numbers should be there.