All Time Draft Round 1 Western Conference 2vs15 and 7vs10

[barkleynash]

VOTING IS OPEN TO EVERYONE. However, the requirement is that you have >100 post counts, and your account must be registered before Sept 14. Troll votes would not be taken into account (subjected to veto by the 3 commissioners).
Voting will end on Halloween at 11:59pm



Western Conference


#2 Team Kurple

PG: Chauncey Billups 05-06
SG: Ray Allen 00-01
SF: Grant Hill 96-97
PF: Bobby Jones 76-77
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 79-80

Bench: Kirk Hinrich 06-07
Allen Iverson 97-98
Tayshaun Prince 06-07
Chris Bosh 12-13
Mark Eaton

Coach: Larry Brown


VS


#15 Team Random Guy
http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpos...6&postcount=57


PG/SG: Steph Curry 13-14
SG: Reggie Miller
SF/PF/PG: Lebron James 11-12
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Dwight Howard

Bench: Russell Westbrook
Carmelo Anthony
Al Horford
Omer Asik
Steve Kerr

Coach: Gregg Popovich


AND



#7 Team Wally
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...postcount=1016 (team synopsis)

PG: Isiah Thomas 87-88
SG/PG: Joe Dumars 88-89
SF/SG: Clyde Drexler 91-92
C/PF: Bill Russell 61-62
C: Yao Ming 06-07

Bench: Jeremy Lin 11-12
Jason Terry 10-11
Xavier McDaniels 88-89
Robert Horry 97-98
Bill Laimbeer 88-89

Coach: Chuck Daley


VS


#10 Team Raiderfan
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...postcount=1044

PG: Mookie Blaylock 96-97
SG/SF: Eddie Jones 97-98
SF/PF: Kevin Durant 13-14
PF/C: Anthony Davis 13-14
C: David Robinson 93-94

Bench: Terry Porter 90-91
Joe Johnson 04-05
Giannis Antetokounmpo 13-14
Detlef Schrempf 94-95
Tyson Chandler 10-11

Coach: Red Aurbach


Good luck to everyone! You may now start the debate.

Western Conference 6vs11 and 3vs14: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...9#post10665349
Eastern Conference 1vs16 and 8vs9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6#post10664616
Eastern Conference 5vs12 and 4vs13: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...7#post10664917

Link back to the home playoff page: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1#post10664321

[kshutts1]

I don't want to be totally final, but Kurple wins that matchup unless the other GM gives a pretty sweet breakdown. I have a plan if I were him, but I want to see what he does.

As for the Raider matchup... that will be fun.

[kshutts1]

It feels so wrong to offer "insight" to a matchup where the GMs have not done a game plan.

That said, Wally's defensive juggernaut may have run in to the sole player they can't shut down. No one on their team has the length to deal with Durant. Dumars is much too small. Drexler is a decent size at 6'6... but then you remember Durant is 6'11. And better.

I'm assuming Russell will watch Davis, but DRob will abuse Yao's lack of lateral agility. Definitely a difficult test for Russell to keep the paint on lock.

Being totally honest, I think Wally needs to pull some tricks out of his hat. I did have Raider ranked higher, so maybe it's my personal bias, but I'll need some convincing.

I withhold the ability to change my vote for the next 24 hours (should be sufficient time to get all GMs to offer game plans), but it's currently a Kurple and Raider victory. And as strong as Wally's team is, I don't think it's that close in either case.

[raiderfan19]

This is an interesting matchup, and the first thing id like to point out is that this kind of matchup is exactly why I drafted Mookie. In their career head to heads, Thomas shot 36.6% from the floor and 16.7% from 3 while avging only 16.0 ppg and 3.7 topg. I'll say it again Mookie is one of the best defensive PGs ever and we will take away his greatest offensive player. The next thing to mention is that this teams starting lineup lacks shooting which should allow my team to run wild trapping/hedging/helping and generally flying around all over the place. My original thought was to hide kd on Russell since he was a non threat but I don't think kd could box him out so we will stay true to the matchups at least to start possessions. That being said I want to reiterate how much his shooting hurts him against my lineup. Isiah shot 27% on 3s that year and even worse in the playoffs. Dumars regular season percentage looks good till you realize he only took 29 in the whole season. He was also 1-12 from deep in the playoffs. This stat is unfair to dumars because it starts in 94, but it's also important to realize that in their head to head matchups, dumars avged 12.7 ppg on 34.2% /34.0% shooting(and one of his highest scoring games was his next to last one when Eddie no longer needed to guard him) Eddies length gave him fits since he was also athletic enough to stay in front of him.

Getting to the frontcourt, Clyde is his best 3 pt shooter at 33.7% on a lot of attempts but that isn't exactly enough to keep us honest plus, that's not what he does best. Russell is the perfect guy to allow Davis to help block shots like he did tonight(I asked for this years version of him it's constantly updating but that guy is a monster who will score enough garbage buckets to keep Russell from being able to roam though I doubt either does much offensively against the other. Then we come to the problem area. Yao couldn't guard drob at all, and while he'd make a few jumpers/hooks I just don't see him giving the admiral anywhere near the problems that Robinson's combination of athleticism and faceup game would give him. One other thing Yao noticeably tired when he had to run. Drob was a gazelle. He ran all game without ever getting tired. I just see this as an ugly matchup where his team struggles to score and we ride drob to a series win. If he chooses to put Russell on drob, we give the ball to ad from 18 feet or have him and kd run pick and rolls(Yao is going to be in a bunch of Kevin Durant pick and rolls no matter who he's guarding) and watch the points pile up.

When he goes to the bench, his backup guards are exactly the kind of guards that porter and joe Johnson can bully. Also my backup guards can defend. His can't.

[raiderfan19]

Sorry that was a little jumbled/rushed. Posted from my phone. If any clarification is needed let me know but I wanted to get an opening argument out there and I think this is a good matchup for me.

[wally_world]

PLAYOFFS!!!

I'll state a few points about the matchup first, before moving on to counter the points brought up earlier

1) The most glaring advantage I have in this series is the playoff/championship experience. I believe I have one of the most playoff mileages in this tournament, and Team Raider is the distinct opposite. You cannot undermine the importance of winning because this is the playoffs afterall.


2) With the versatility of my bigs, Yao will probably see alot less minutes in this matchup. Laimbeer will be inserted as a starter to begin the game, and XMan will also see extended minutes as a KD-stopper.

Adjusted Rotations
Isiah 34mpg | Dumars 14mpg
Dumars 12mpg | Terry 20mpg | Drexler 16mpg
Drexler 18mpg | McDaniel 30mpg
Laimbeer 32mpg | Russell 4mpg | Horry 12mpg
Russell 34mpg | Yao 14mpg

XMan is the perfect defender to shut down KD with his length, quickness and physicality. Russell will have no problem guarding DRob, and Dumars locking down EJ.

Expect this be an extremely low scoring series, and when it comes down to roughing out a bucket, I like my championship proven guys grinding out the game for me.


3) My team prides itself on being a physically and psychologically intimidating defensive team, which is what I feel will give Team Raider's dynamic duo so much problems. Both KD and DRob have the reputation of being soft and guys like Laimbeer, XMan, Russell would be a nightmare matchup for them.


- Championship/Playoff Experience
- Physical and intimidating defense a nightmare matchup for KD/DRob
- Low scoring series, where Isiah/Russell will grind out a win better than the opposition

[wally_world]

This is an interesting matchup, and the first thing id like to point out is that this kind of matchup is exactly why I drafted Mookie. In their career head to heads, Thomas shot 36.6% from the floor and 16.7% from 3 while avging only 16.0 ppg and 3.7 topg. I'll say it again Mookie is one of the best defensive PGs ever and we will take away his greatest offensive player. The next thing to mention is that this teams starting lineup lacks shooting which should allow my team to run wild trapping/hedging/helping and generally flying around all over the place. My original thought was to hide kd on Russell since he was a non threat but I don't think kd could box him out so we will stay true to the matchups at least to start possessions. That being said I want to reiterate how much his shooting hurts him against my lineup. Isiah shot 27% on 3s that year and even worse in the playoffs. Dumars regular season percentage looks good till you realize he only took 29 in the whole season. He was also 1-12 from deep in the playoffs. This stat is unfair to dumars because it starts in 94, but it's also important to realize that in their head to head matchups, dumars avged 12.7 ppg on 34.2% /34.0% shooting(and one of his highest scoring games was his next to last one when Eddie no longer needed to guard him) Eddies length gave him fits since he was also athletic enough to stay in front of him.

Getting to the frontcourt, Clyde is his best 3 pt shooter at 33.7% on a lot of attempts but that isn't exactly enough to keep us honest plus, that's not what he does best. Russell is the perfect guy to allow Davis to help block shots like he did tonight(I asked for this years version of him it's constantly updating but that guy is a monster who will score enough garbage buckets to keep Russell from being able to roam though I doubt either does much offensively against the other. Then we come to the problem area. Yao couldn't guard drob at all, and while he'd make a few jumpers/hooks I just don't see him giving the admiral anywhere near the problems that Robinson's combination of athleticism and faceup game would give him. One other thing Yao noticeably tired when he had to run. Drob was a gazelle. He ran all game without ever getting tired. I just see this as an ugly matchup where his team struggles to score and we ride drob to a series win. If he chooses to put Russell on drob, we give the ball to ad from 18 feet or have him and kd run pick and rolls(Yao is going to be in a bunch of Kevin Durant pick and rolls no matter who he's guarding) and watch the points pile up.

When he goes to the bench, his backup guards are exactly the kind of guards that porter and joe Johnson can bully. Also my backup guards can defend. His can't.

The entire premise of your argument is based on 1 on 1 matchups. Which is not how the game works. The h2h matchups are to be taken with a pinch of salt because I have alot of older guys who were out of the prime when those stats were recorded. As a matter of fact, none of the stats belong to the years I have chosen for my players.


Few things to note tho:
- Isiah played for the very defensive-minded Pistons who were all about slowing down the game and grinding it out. They never had enough offensive options around him which is why he never had a high FG%. Despite that, he still comes through for his team more often than not to carve out a win, which is all that matters. Not to mention the additional help he has on this team.

- The Pistons relied very little on the 3pt shot which is why Dumars attempted such a small volume. In his later years when he was tasked to shoot more, he remained a knock down shooter in the high-30s. He never improved his shooting, it was always there for him, and I have no reason to believe he cant be a 3pt shooter as the modern game requires.

- If Eddie Jones is guarding Dumars, will KD be guarding Clyde? If so Clyde automatically becomes my #1 option. How will KD respond to guarding Clyde while having to be the #1 guy on the offensive end for you?


As for your mismatch against Yao, I will reduce him to a bench role (which he wouldnt have a problem with given his nature) and have him come on against Tyson Chandler whom he'd absolutely destroy in short spurts. Laimbeer will limit the pick and roll game between KD/AD and his physicality would be a nightmare for the very light Davis.

Also, don't disregard the offensive ability of Russell (he put up 22ppg in the playoffs, a non-threat? ) - he never scores in bunches because he doesn't have to, but he is a terrific playmaker in the high post and had 18ft range - perfect in a dynamic, unselfish offense like mine. Don't forget his work on the offensive glass.

[raiderfan19]

Kd will guard xman when he's in the game, Clyde when all of your starters are in. Kd guards lebron all the time and it never hurts his game. Also I strongly disagree that x is the perfect kd defender. He was too short and not perimeter oriented enough to guard kd. Also given kds propensity for drawing fouls and x's physicality, it's very likely he'd be in foul trouble a lot. It's also important to note that by playing x more, you are killing your already bad spacing. The only perimeter player who can shoot that you have playing is terry for 20 minutes who terry porter or joe Johnson will just abuse.

As for what dumars did later in his career, you don't get that. You have a player who made 15 3s all year including the playoffs as your floor spacer.

If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset. I realize the game isn't a series of 1 v1 matchups, just showing that my guys ability to defend your guys, isn't just hypothetical. Mookie is the perfect Isiah defender and jones is the perfect drexler/dumars defender.

How exactly does laimbeer guard Davis?

As for Russell's offense, with either of my bigs guarding him, he's a non threat.

[wally_world]

Kd guards lebron all the time and it never hurts his game.

Huge myth. I'm a big OKC fan and I watch alot of their games, and probably all the Heat/OKC games last season. OKC loves to start off with KD on LeBron because of matchups (never once worked well, puts KD in foul trouble and we always go into an early deficit). Once substitutions start coming in, Sefo and PJ3 (even Ibaka sometimes) are the primary defenders on LeBron. I clearly remember this because of how well PJ3 defends LeBron.

Also I strongly disagree that x is the perfect kd defender. He was too short and not perimeter oriented enough to guard kd. Also given kds propensity for drawing fouls and x's physicality, it's very likely he'd be in foul trouble a lot. It's also important to note that by playing x more, you are killing your already bad spacing. The only perimeter player who can shoot that you have playing is terry for 20 minutes who terry porter or joe Johnson will just abuse.

Another huge myth. Height is not a factor when it comes to defending KD. The best guys to guard KD have always been shorter, stronger players who can deny his penetration and force him into outside shots (see Tony Allen). XMan can do exactly that, muscle KD out of the paint (also where he draws most of his fouls at ever since refs stop giving him the rip-thru calls). X was also a smart defender who uses his fouls wisely, he's not one of those limited minutes defenders who throws his 6 fouls at the opposing best player (always played big minutes).

All this talk about my bad spacing, are you gonna leave my shooters open to help on defense then? I'll leave that up to the voters to decide whether leaving Dumars/Drexler or even Isiah or McDaniel open is a good idea. Don't forget I have Bill Laimbeer, one of the best 3pt shooting bigs out there too.

Also, you are way exaggerating how terrible Jet's defense is. He's a perfectly fine system defender (esp in my system), where Dumars/Isiah takes the better backcourt player. If your guys ever blow him by, there's just Bill Russell and Laimbeer behind

If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset. I realize the game isn't a series of 1 v1 matchups, just showing that my guys ability to defend your guys, isn't just hypothetical. Mookie is the perfect Isiah defender and jones is the perfect drexler/dumars defender.

??? So adjusting your gameplan is a bad idea? I built my team on the premise of being versatile and adaptable. Exactly the reason why I have Laimbeer and McDaniel who bring missing elements in my starting lineup to the game.

Yeah I'm not denying they are capable defenders. But just like you have answers to some of my players, I have answers to yours. Except my team relies much more on having a dynamic offense whereas yours rely heavily on the shoulders of 2 players (very minimal playmaking). In low scoring matchups like this, that will be a HUGE disadvantage.

How exactly does laimbeer guard Davis?

As for Russell's offense, with either of my bigs guarding him, he's a non threat.

Wait, is Anthony Davis your team's savior now? How many shots is he even getting? Laimbeer is more than capable of guarding the inexperienced and much smaller AD. I see AD scoring in 2 ways here - pick and rolls and offensive rebounds. Laimbeer one of the best at hedging, and Russell's quickness down low won't make pick and rolls come easy. Also, your initiator is Durant who frankly isn't on that level yet (much better as a pop/roll man with Westbrook initiating). Laimbeer will also bully AD on the boards because of how well he boxes out.

On the other end, Laimbeer stretches out AD as your weakside shotblocker, or when he's in the paint, can box him out easily for offensive boards. Or are you gonna have DRob pulled away from the rim?

Glad you acknowledge the presence of Russell because it sure seemed like you don't expect to guard him much in your earlier arguments. If you truly think Russell is someone you can sag off then you're gonna get burned. With smart offense initiators like Isiah/Clyde, and the basketball IQ of Russell, your help defense will get broken down much more often than mine. Russell might not be the one finishing the play, but his decision making on offense makes him a very respectable offensive threat. Plus his knack for rebounds will clean the offensive glass if your defender goes away to help on the shot even for a split second.

[wally_world]

To reiterate my points

1) Clear edge in playoff/championship experience for Team Wally. Russell/Isiah have came through for their teams in the clutch and shown much more leadership than KD/DRob. Honestly, this intangible trait is extremely vital. You're only as good as where your leaders take you.

2) Both teams have great defenders who can lock down their opponents. Team Raider relies heavily on KD/DRob (who are guarded by 2 elite defenders in XMan/Russell) with minimal playmaking, whereas Team Wally relies on dynamic offense with the best decision makers in the likes of Isiah/Clyde/Russell.

3) Huge edge on toughness, which will be vital in a physical low scoring series. Russell, Laimbeer, XMan will bully the soft frontline of KD, AD, DRob, which will disintegrate his entire team.

[raiderfan19]

Every "great defender" you have is at a pretty big size disadvantage.

How are you stopping kd pick and rolls? Russel is great but we are gonna mostly run pick and rolls at your other big(no matter who it is)

As for jet yes he was terrible defensively but that wasn't even my point . Porter used his size and strength to bully john Stockton. How does jet stop that?

As for my defense versus your shooters. I'm not saying we will just ignore them completely and leave them alone. What I am saying is the fact that you don't have a good let alone great shooter allows my extremely athletic team to hedge and help while not ever being effected by the gravity that elite shooters have. We don't have to leave them alone but we don't have to be concerned about every inch of airspace we give them either. We aren't gonna help off Russ much because we know we to stay connected to him for rebounding purposes. My team is always going to have at least 3 and at times 4 shooters who range from good to elite. Schrempf, Johnson, Durant and porter are elite shooters. And yes if need be we will give ad the ball 18 feet from the basket and tell him to abuse laimbeer off the dribble/or run kd/ad pick and rolls.

As for playmaking I'm not nearly as lacking as you seem to think. Drob and durant, my two primary scorers avged over 10 assists per game between them. That's elite for 30 ppg scoring non guards. Throw in my PGs, Eddie, jones and schrempfs passing and I'm fine with this matchup.

Finally I can't stress the size disadvantage enough. Whomever is guarding kd is at at least a 4 inch and sometimes much greater height disadvantage. Dumars is 3+inches shorter than jones and even more shorter than Johnson. Same thing applies to porter against your backup PGs. Even drob is much bigger than russel(though he'd be fine) also if any coach knows how to deal with Russell, it'd be red.

[kshutts1]

My official votes..

Kurple. Even if his team wasn't nasty, the other team would shoot themselves in the foot.

And Raider. Wally defended his team amazingly well. He did a much better job than Raider did. But I just think Raider's team is better, even if he's not able to write about it as eloquently.
The length and quickness and general athleticism is huge, mostly because Wally's team just.. can't shoot. He can sag off.. go under screens, etc, because he's long and athletic enough to recover. The defense will be so much easier to run on that virtue alone. Then if there's an opportunity to run.. look out. And in the half court sets, Raider's far superior shooting wins out.

[raiderfan19]

It's a little harder for me to do this on a cell phone. If need be I'll make better/more eloquent arguments on my comp later when I have time. But to make everything into bullet points like he did.

1. His best player consistently got locked down by the guy I'll have guarding him. To the tune of a career 36/17 shooting percentage against him with 3.7 topg and only 16.0 ppg. This hurts his playmaking argument a lot because his best playmaker is neutered.

2. This is a piggyback on point 1, but I'll reiterate it here. We've both have outstanding defensive teams. The difference is my team specifically matches up well with his best scorers. My one defensive weakness hypothetically would be a team with 2 burly post scorers who can both shoot enough/are athletic enough to play together and keep the floor spaced but allow one of them to use his strength to overpower Davis. He doesn't have that. On the other hand his one defensive weakness is a big wing scorer who can both shoot and drive. I happen to have literally the worst matchup for his defense in the whole draft in Durant.

3. Shooting. Quite simply I have a ton of it and he has none. This is a huge problem and one that also puts a damper on his playmaking. I don't think it's outlandish to say that I have the best combination of length and athleticism in the draft. You know what that combination does? It makes every inch of space count on offense. Even if his great playmaker(he really only has one despite his decision to include dumars and Clyde) create small openings, he doesn't have the shooters to take advantage of it. I do.

[wally_world]

How are you stopping kd pick and rolls? Russel is great but we are gonna mostly run pick and rolls at your other big(no matter who it is)

Not the least worried about a KD/AD pick and roll, if that is indeed your go-to-move. Laimbeer (and Horry for short stints) are both perfectly capable of guarding the pick and roll. McDaniel is a long and strong defender to fight through the screens as well against KD who isn't even a great PnR initiator. Plus I have the greatest defensive presence ever protecting the paint.

As for jet yes he was terrible defensively but that wasn't even my point . Porter used his size and strength to bully john Stockton. How does jet stop that?

If that's your winning formula, you're in trouble. Go ahead, let Porter be your team's offense initiator and let him go 1 on 1 against his defender

As for my defense versus your shooters. I'm not saying we will just ignore them completely and leave them alone. What I am saying is the fact that you don't have a good let alone great shooter allows my extremely athletic team to hedge and help while not ever being effected by the gravity that elite shooters have. We don't have to leave them alone but we don't have to be concerned about every inch of airspace we give them either.

Fair enough. But my team's offense is much more than a couple of screen and rolls (which seems like your team's go-to-move). With smart initiators like Isiah/Drexler/Russell I wouldn't need to rely on just screens to get the ball moving. Even if my guys aren't shooting when you go under (Dumars/Drexler will definitely pull up, i'll put my money on them making it), they are crafty enough to blow by with that extra 2-3 steps of momentum they can gain on their defenders.

Tho you can expect more of giving the ball to Russell in the high post, and have Laimbeer set off-ball picks with Drexler/Isiah cutting into the paint and Dumars spotting up weak side. I trust the passing and basketball IQ of my team to break down your defense rather than just physical tools.

We aren't gonna help off Russ much because we know we to stay connected to him for rebounding purposes.

Hmmm, differs from what you said earlier ain't it? I quote "Russell is the perfect guy to allow Davis to help block shots like he did tonight"

"If you change your starting lineup before the series even starts, you are ripe for an upset." - Raiderfan

Now if your team is changing game plans MID-GAME, what does that say about your team?

As for playmaking I'm not nearly as lacking as you seem to think. Drob and durant, my two primary scorers avged over 10 assists per game between them. That's elite for 30 ppg scoring non guards. Throw in my PGs, Eddie, jones and schrempfs passing and I'm fine with this matchup.

That was my point. Taking your main 2 guys out of the game and your team is completely broken down. Your PGs are under-average, especially against these competition. Eddie Jones was alot of things, but a playmaker definitely isn't one. Schrempf is an alright passer, but nowhere near the type that can you can run an offense through.

Finally I can't stress the size disadvantage enough. Whomever is guarding kd is at at least a 4 inch and sometimes much greater height disadvantage. Dumars is 3+inches shorter than jones and even more shorter than Johnson. Same thing applies to porter against your backup PGs. Even drob is much bigger than russel(though he'd be fine) also if any coach knows how to deal with Russell, it'd be red.

Size disadvantage? Do you even realise how skinny/weak (in terms of strength) your team is? If you meant height, you can stress it all you want, but the fact is it's not a difference maker. Russell dominated his taller opponents, Isiah is the best little guard to play the game, Tony Allen is 6'4" and had no problem guarding KD. Dumars contained the bigger/taller MJ but all of a sudden Eddie Jones is a problem?

Size isn't nearly as big an issue as physicality, where my team completely trounces yours.

[Gotterdammerung]

Had Wally drafted a legitimate power forward, like Pettit or the young Spencer Haywood or Elvin Hayes, he would match up better with Raider Fan. Instead he has to try and start both Yao and Russell. Then try to justify their roles at the risk of compromising his team.

As if Bill Russell can't play center.

Raiderfan over Wally.

I'll hold off on the other matchup.