where does Dirk rank among all time greatest PFs?

[DMAVS41]

You could start by explaining exactly what you think the impact of an elite supporting cast and brilliant coach is on a player's game, and why you can so easily dismiss this when talking about KG's game.

Because I'm pretty sure that being surrounded by elite offensive weapons and an ATG coach matters. Matters a lot. I understand Cassell and Sprewell weren't scrubs, and that Flip Saunders wasn't a bad coach. No one said they were. But seriously, we're talking about Kareem, Worthy, Scott, McAdoo, etc with Pat Riley as his coach. Come on now.

31 year old KG was given some elite talent around him in Allen, Pierce, and Rondo, with an elite coach in Doc...guess what. They started the year 28-3 and KG was without a doubt the best player on the team. You put peak KG on that team and they're arguably the GOAT team. What I'm saying isn't anything that controversial. You take a great player and surround him with great teammates and give him a great coach...that great player's game will find another level.

Jesus man...stop it.

Stop acting like I'm ranking Magic ahead of KG because of help.

What I'm saying...is that you could put just about anyone around KG and I don't see him changing. He'd be an elite defensive player and a very good offensive player. Do I think he's ever going to be consistently going for 58% TS in the playoffs as the main guy? Hell no.

I don't think Magic was great because of his help. Sorry...that stuff matters and makes the game easier at times, but a player is who a player is....especially stars. Honestly...it's more role players that are impact by what role they play.

And if you put KG on a team with elite offensive options. He'd score about 15 a game....because he's not an elite offensive option himself. So he'd be 3rd in line in your hypothetical.

[DMAVS41]

I have KG's peak ahead of Magic's. Not trolling.

I didn't start watching until Shaq's rookie year so I'm basing this opinion on what I've seen of Magic after the fact (watched as many of his Finals games as possible).

I understand that my opinion places me in the minority, but I'm pretty firmly rooted where I stand.

Well, if you never saw Magic play...I'd say your opinion should be taken with a grain of salt to say the least.

[tpols]

Everyone knows they made the WCF in 04. You really need me to say that? Do you guys really not even know that?

You want me to write a book with every relevant detail in these posts? Come on now...I'm assuming you guys know a bit of NBA history here.

KG's two biggest differentials on/off came in Minnesota in 03 and 04. Considering we have been discussing peak...I see no reason to mention Boston. That clearly was not KG's peak as a player.

I was talking about cassell getting hurt.. you mentioned the one good team he had in minny but failed to mention their second best player got hurt. With Cassell healthy the whole way through they wouldve had a serious shot at a title and cassell/spree/flip saunders is certainly no manu/parker/popovich.


I dont know what you mean by on off.. Ive been talking rapm the whole time. Since that gives a regression based on their team impact on and off the court/how much they improve their offense and defense.

KG led the league in rapm in 2008 for the only time in his career, the last year of his prime.. That directly contradicts the statement 'you put him on poor teams of course his on/off is going to be amazing'. He had one of the best of his career on a stacked team.

[Milbuck]

Jesus man...stop it.

Stop acting like I'm ranking Magic ahead of KG because of help.

What I'm saying...is that you could put just about anyone around KG and I don't see him changing. He'd be an elite defensive player and a very good offensive player. Do I think he's ever going to be consistently going for 58% TS in the playoffs as the main guy? Hell no.

I don't think Magic was great because of his help. Sorry...that stuff matters and makes the game easier at times, but a player is who a player is....especially stars. Honestly...it's more role players that are impact by what role they play.

And if you put KG on a team with elite offensive options. He'd score about 15 a game....because he's not an elite offensive option himself. So he'd be 3rd in line in your hypothetical.

I never said you're ranking Magic over KG because of help..I'm saying you're vastly underestimating the influence of elite offensive talent around and you, and excellent coaching.

A player is who a player is..yes..but how can you not see that having players around you to make the game easier can expand your game?

If KG had someone like a Robert Parish to take care of the post so his team could use his defensive versatility more..he could cover more ground..that helps.

If KG had an elite off ball player and shooter/scorer like Ray Allen on his team to keep defenses honest and stretch the floor..that helps. It not only helps KG's scoring efficiency but it also plays directly into one of his biggest assets offensively, his GOAT level passing for his position.

These are top 15-20 players we're talking about. Their games have multiple dimensions..when you take the burden off one facet of their game, other facets of their games can shine brighter. It's really not that weird a concept.

And 31 year old KG with elite offensive weapons around him put up 19ppg on 59% TS. Yeah, peak KG would be lucky to crack 15 ppg if he had elite talent around him

[DMAVS41]

I was talking about cassell getting hurt.. you mentioned the one good team he had in minny but failed to mention their second best player got hurt. With Cassell healthy the whole way through they wouldve had a serious shot at a title and cassell/spree/flip saunders is certainly no manu/parker/popovich.


I dont know what you mean by on off.. Ive been talking rapm the whole time. Since that gives a regression based on their team impact on and off the court/how much they improve their offense and defense.

KG led the league in rapm in 2008 for the only time in his career, the last year of his prime.. That directly contradicts the statement 'you put him on poor teams of course his on/off is going to be amazing'. He had one of the best of his career on a stacked team.

everyone knows Cassell got hurt. jesus...did you guys start watching the games 5 years ago when I joined.

we have never brought up Boston once. we've been talking about his peak.

which i'm assuming is the 03 and 04 seasons for most.

his on off was those years was at it's peak...followed up by Boston in 08 3rd.

[DMAVS41]

This is just not true whatsoever. A player is who a player is..yes..but how can you not see that having players around you to make the game easier can expand your game?

If KG had someone like a Robert Parish to take care of the post so his team could his defensive versatility more..he could cover more ground..that helps.

If KG had an elite off ball player and shooter/scorer like Ray Allen on his team to keep defenses honest and stretch the floor..that helps. It not helps KG's scoring efficiency but it also plays directly into one of his biggest assets offensively, his GOAT level passing for his position.

These are top 15-20 players we're talking about. Their games have multiple dimensions..when you take the burden off facet, other facets of their games can shine brighter. It's really not that weird a concept.

And 31 year old KG with elite offensive weapons around him put up 19ppg on 59% TS. Yeah, peak KG would be lucky to crack 15 ppg if he had elite talent around him

Dude. he put up like 19 a game in 08.

Pierce and Allen that year...I wouldn't consider either of them elite offensive players.

If you put KG on a team with two elite offensive players. He'd be the 3rd option. And he'd score around 15 or so a game give or take.

But I don't think that is the equivalent because he wouldn't be the guy offensively on those teams.

So you are just making my point for me. That KG isn't well suited to carry an offense...especially in the playoffs.

And I absolutely refute your point that you are basically trying to sneak in...which is that Magic was somehow a product of his teams. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think if Magic played with KG's level of help in his career his stats would be roughly the same...as would his game be. I could see his scoring and rebounding go up a little...assists down a little. With TS going down 1% or so.

But again that is more noise....we are comparing KG to some of the best championship first options ever. Not third options...

[Milbuck]

Dude. he put up like 19 a game in 08.

Pierce and Allen that year...I wouldn't consider either of them elite offensive players.

If you put KG on a team with two elite offensive players. He'd be the 3rd option. And he'd score around 15 or so a game give or take.

But I don't think that is the equivalent because he wouldn't be the guy offensively on those teams.

So you are just making my point for me. That KG isn't well suited to carry an offense...especially in the playoffs.

And I absolutely refute your point that you are basically trying to sneak in...which is that Magic was somehow a product of his teams. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think if Magic played with KG's level of help in his career his stats would be roughly the same...as would his game be. I could see his scoring and rebounding go up a little...assists down a little. With TS going down 1% or so.

But again that is more noise....we are comparing KG to some of the best championship first options ever. Not third options...

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in their primes (although the tail end of it) aren't elite 2nd and 3rd options?

Gee, I guess even when KG finally got talent around him and led a dominant team in his early 30s, it wasn't even that talented.

And the bolded is now you trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Magic was the product of his teams. Nothing of the sort.

Just that it helps quite a bit to have talent around you, and an ATG coach.

Good lord. Great players play better when surrounded by talented players. It's not that controversial.

And you likening KG to a third option is just a joke. Complete and utter joke. Peak KG with Pierce and Allen is winning the title as the #1. Clear-cut #1. He was the best in 2008 and he'd be far and away the best at his peak.

[tpols]

everyone knows Cassell got hurt. jesus...did you guys start watching the games 5 years ago when I joined.

we have never brought up Boston once. we've been talking about his peak.

which i'm assuming is the 03 and 04 seasons for most.

his on off was those years was at it's peak...followed up by Boston in 08 3rd.

yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.

[DMAVS41]

It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.

[Milbuck]

yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.

Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

[DMAVS41]

yea so if end prime KG can post league leading on off numbers on a stacked team, I dont see how peak 03/04 KG couldnt do the same on stacked teams.

His amazing on/off numbers have almost nothing to do with whether his team was poor or stacked.. theyve been amazing in both cases.

i never said he couldn't..?????

I merely said his absurd on/off numbers at his peak obviously have something to do with his less than great help.

In 03 it was plus 23.6
In 04 it was plus 20.7
In 08 it was plus 11.8

If those look the same to you....keep on trucking...

[Milbuck]

It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.

I think we've reached the point where we just gotta agree to disagree. You're not thoroughly addressing any of my points, and just keep coming back with over generalizations of my argument or irrelevant summaries of your position that have been tackled numerous times. Before I go, I will point out that this is completely false. Not at all true..it's completely debatable and it has been debated over and over and over again.

[DMAVS41]

Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

It's about his role.

How are you defining elite? Elite to me would be like Kareem at center and then someone like Wade at sg.

You were the one that brought it up. How many shots is KG getting? How many plays are being run for him?

He's gonna be a distant 3rd option playing with actual elite offensive forces in your scenario.

[DMAVS41]

I think we've reached the point where we just gotta agree to disagree. You're not thoroughly addressing any of my points, and just keep coming back with over generalizations of my argument or irrelevant summaries of your position that have been tackled numerous times. Before I go, I will point out that this is completely false. Not at all true.

Yea...it just is.

Please show me some player rankings in which Hakeem or KG is ranked over Magic.

I am addressing your points.

You just seem to continue to think I care about titles or other non sense.

And you seem hell bent on thinking KG would just turn into some high efficient player scoring 25 a game having an offense run through him.

It's not happening. Not his game at all. Got to judge these players at least a little on what they actually do.

He's a 52.5% TS player for his career in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen in their primes (although the tail end of it) aren't elite 2nd and 3rd options?

Gee, I guess even when KG finally got talent around him and led a dominant team in his early 30s, it wasn't even that talented.

And the bolded is now you trying to put words in my mouth. I never said Magic was the product of his teams. Nothing of the sort.

Just that it helps quite a bit to have talent around you, and an ATG coach.

Good lord. Great players play better when surrounded by talented players. It's not that controversial.

And you likening KG to a third option is just a joke. Complete and utter joke. Peak KG with Pierce and Allen is winning the title as the #1. Clear-cut #1. He was the best in 2008 and he'd be far and away the best at his peak.

Paul Pierce in 08 was not a ****ing all time elite offensive force.

And again...what was KG's TS???? 54.2% TS in the playoffs. Exactly what you would expect out of him given his skill set and playing with more help than he's ever had.