Derrick Rose 2013: I will die on that court, Derick Rose 2014: life after basketball

[Lebron23]

Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose are this generations Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway.

[Pointguard]

Agree with some of that...disagree with some.

I do get a good chuckle out of the mythological type talk like...."is more resourceful" and "paces himself better" and "adapts better"

Ellis started off good last year and I told you he was going to tire out and not only once but a couple of times. And it took only like ten games. At the end of games, two things do happen: Ellis tires and he can't turn the game around. One is resourcefulness and the other is pacing.

About what I would expect from someone when there really is not much of a tangible difference between the two players.

Why do you think Ellis doesn't get much attention at all? Give him a lot of attention and he's not a worry at all.

FYI...Ellis led the league in drives last year. I don't think there is much room to speak of Rose as the more frequent or better driver to the basket in any real sense.

Give Rose, Dirk and it wouldn't be close. Rose had more drives to the basket with teams shadowing him and focused primarily and sometimes totally on him. Do you really think they are the same?

[DMAVS41]

Ellis started off good last year and I told you he was going to tire out and not only once but a couple of times. And it took only like ten games. At the end of games, two things do happen: Ellis tires and he can't turn the game around. One is resourcefulness and the other is pacing.

Why do you think Ellis doesn't get much attention at all? Give him a lot of attention and he's not a worry at all.


Give Rose, Dirk and it wouldn't be close. Rose had more drives to the basket with teams shadowing him and focused primarily and sometimes totally on him. Do you really think they are the same?

But this isn't factual though....Ellis was our best crunch time player last year.
Meh...could make a lot of the same arguments in reverse.

Give Ellis the ultimate green light and the best defense/rebounding team behind him and he'd do all the things you say he can't.

But wears down at the end of games? Not true at all...he was one of the best clutch players last year.

Just to confirm...I looked it up. Ellis was 7th in crunch time scoring last year and did so on very respectable shooting splits of 45% fg, 55% 3, and 75% ft. He had a plus/minus of plus 64.

Now...the test. Will you admit that Ellis was good at the end of games last year?

[Pointguard]

But this isn't factual though....Ellis was our best crunch time player last year.
Meh...could make a lot of the same arguments in reverse.

So you are telling me I should expect Ellis to lead the league in flipping fourth quarter leads. Really??? The highest proportion of points in the 4th quarter in the league. Because that's the reverse.

Give Ellis the ultimate green light and the best defense/rebounding team behind him and he'd do all the things you say he can't.

What are you talking about the ultimate green light. He shot more than Rose did in a freestyle offense even in 2011. He had waaay more freedom. Rose never shot more than 20 times per game, Ellis has gone up to 22. Defense and a rebounding team would have demanded more of Ellis - not less. And teams would be more focused on him and he isn't as efficient as Rose either. Am I wrong?

But wears down at the end of games? Not true at all...he was one of the best clutch players last year.

It could have changed last year as he's in his prime. But Rose didn't tire until the playoffs where he was guarding Wade AND had an offensive burden that Ellis never came close to handling.

In the playoffs, last year, Ellis was definitely a step down from Rose as a rookie in every dimension. And this is Rose's worst year by a mile in the playoffs, yet Rose was a far better rebounder, shooter, decision-maker, passer, efficiency AND CLUTCH shooting than Ellis in this year you are claiming. Not close in any of the those categories. In fact, since you are claiming facts, in what way was he better than Rookie Rose??? This is comparing a rookie to a prime player.

Just to confirm...I looked it up. Ellis was 7th in crunch time scoring last year and did so on very respectable shooting splits of 45% fg, 55% 3, and 75% ft. He had a plus/minus of plus 64.

Now...the test. Will you admit that Ellis was good at the end of games last year?

No, we are comparing him to a guy that ruled the league in taking over games in the 4th quarter. He has to be top 5 to deserve being put up against a guy that was the best at it and killing the elite while at it. That's fair, no???

[ImKobe]

Brandon Roy and Derrick Rose are this generations Grant Hill, and Penny Hardaway.

Grant & Penny were healthy compared to Rose & Roy.

[LilEddyCurry]

LeBron, Wade, Dwight, Durant and Kobe were all better than Rose in 2011. Melo, Dirk and Amare are all arguable. But however Rose did deserve MVP because of regular season team record.

[jaybee682]

Back to Back major injuries will do that to a players physche. People tend to forget that the game, hell everything is more mental than physical. All the work it takes to get back on the floor becomes draining. So I can understand what he is feeling.

[ballinhun8]

Monta Ellis???


You're reaching Gino. Reaching pretty badly. No need to get into detail because the argument shouldn't even be made.

[DMAVS41]

So you are telling me I should expect Ellis to lead the league in flipping fourth quarter leads. Really??? The highest proportion of points in the 4th quarter in the league. Because that's the reverse.

What are you talking about the ultimate green light. He shot more than Rose did in a freestyle offense even in 2011. He had waaay more freedom. Rose never shot more than 20 times per game, Ellis has gone up to 22. Defense and a rebounding team would have demanded more of Ellis - not less. And teams would be more focused on him and he isn't as efficient as Rose either. Am I wrong?
It could have changed last year as he's in his prime. But Rose didn't tire until the playoffs where he was guarding Wade AND had an offensive burden that Ellis never came close to handling.

In the playoffs, last year, Ellis was definitely a step down from Rose as a rookie in every dimension. And this is Rose's worst year by a mile in the playoffs, yet Rose was a far better rebounder, shooter, decision-maker, passer, efficiency AND CLUTCH shooting than Ellis in this year you are claiming. Not close in any of the those categories. In fact, since you are claiming facts, in what way was he better than Rookie Rose??? This is comparing a rookie to a prime player.


No, we are comparing him to a guy that ruled the league in taking over games in the 4th quarter. He has to be top 5 to deserve being put up against a guy that was the best at it and killing the elite while at it. That's fair, no???

What are you talking about now?

You just got done saying Ellis does not pace himself well and has nothing left at the end of games. I respond showing you he was actually one of the best late game players last year...and you talk about more nonsense about flipping leads like it's all on one player.

Just admit you were wrong about Ellis in the clutch. He was excellent last year for the Mavs. You were wrong...just flat out wrong.

Also not sure what you are referencing about the playoffs when you say career. These guys have hardly played playoff games. Rose has played 29 and Ellis has played 22. Basically we have 2011 for Rose and 2014 for Ellis...that's it.

You are judging Ellis playing on average to poor teams without great coaching...the Ellis of the Mavs last year is a different animal. Still has a ways to go on some stuff, but I don't think you watched him play much at all with some of your comments.

My contention is that the old Ellis was just as capable...he just needed the right situation. And the Mavs are that.

Funny how you say..."if Rose had Dirk"...LOL...you are constantly saying how Dirk isn't that good...etc. Now Dirk is making Ellis? Not even I think that and I'm a Dirk fan.

What year am I claiming? I didn't know we were talking about a specific year. I'm talking just as players. I don't see any real difference...I'd much rather have Ellis on the Mavs for example. I don't want a guy that settles for around five 3's a game and bumps it up to 6 when the going gets tough in the playoffs....

Just don't like that style of guard. I don't think that would fit all that well with what we have.

In other situations Rose is a better fit in my opinion.

But factor in what I've seen from 2011 to present? Shit...give me Ellis for sure over that stretch. Hate to break it to you...but part of Rose the player is his inability to stay on the court. And just as a fan as well...I don't want my 20 million dollar a year player talking like playing basketball is akin to going to war.

[tpols]

Monta Ellis last year on a very good offensive team, with Dirk commanding attention like he always does,especially in the clutch, put up a crunchtime line of:

40/6/6 45FG
+64
Assisted on 33% of his baskets


Derrick Rose in 2011 put up a line of:

48/10/10 40FG
+73
Assisted on 11% of his baskets


This is while having less distraction than monta and having the whole defense coming at him. And D-Rose creating for himself and others literally 3X more than Monta Ellis..

Its why its so silly to compare numbers across vastly different situations. Monta Ellis put up worse clutch stats and overall numbers than 2011 Rose while being in an environment that allowed for easier production. That alone should tell you how much more ability rose has than ellis.

[DMAVS41]

Monta Ellis last year on a very good offensive team, with Dirk commanding attention like he always does,especially in the clutch, put up a crunchtime line of:

40/6/6 45FG
+64
Assisted on 33% of his baskets


Derrick Rose in 2011 put up a line of:

48/10/10 40FG
+73
Assisted on 11% of his baskets


This is while having less distraction than monta and having the whole defense coming at him. And D-Rose creating for himself and others literally 3X more than Monta Ellis..

Its why its so silly to compare numbers across vastly different situations. Monta Ellis put up worse clutch stats and overall numbers than 2011 Rose while being in an environment that allowed for easier production. That alone should tell you how much more ability rose has than ellis.

You left out some important stuff. For starters...I never said Ellis in 14 was better than Rose in 11 in crunch time.

All I said was that Ellis did not wear down and play poorly in crunch time like PG claimed.

So that is the first important distinction.

You also left out the fact that Rose took 37 shots to score his 48 points while Ellis took 27 shots to score his 41 points (yes tpols...if you are going to round...40.5 rounds to 41). Tpols trying to change numbers as usual...shocking.

You left out Rose shooting 20% from the 3 point line and Ellis shooting 55% from the 3 point line.

Rose shot better from the ft line, but overall Ellis was the more efficient scorer.

You also left out Rose averaging 3 more turnovers in crunch time as well per 48 minutes...all the above stats are per 48 if you are getting them from 82games.com...which I think you are.

So congrats...Rose took 10 more shots...and 2 more ft's to score 7 more points...while also turning it over 3 more times.

Yea...uhhhh...that just isn't better.

As for Dirk...actually Dirk was kind of shit last year in crunch time. He wore down at the end of games and wasn't close to his normal self...he shot 39% from the field and 21% from 3 in crunch time last year. Yes...he absolutely drew attention, but he wasn't dominating teams like he used to. So acting like it was the same old Dirk is misleading.

So...you need to paint the entire picture first. Like just being able to comprehend the actual data. The fact that you think scoring 7 more points while taking 10 more shots, 2 more ft's, and turning it over 3 more times per 48 minutes...is better...well...even for you is surprising.

Seems like it makes sense. You'd expect that out of roughly similar players. You put one in a better offensive system with more offensive help and watch his efficiency go up and the need for him to score all the points go down. You put Rose on the 14 Mavs and he's not getting up 37 shots...you realize this...right? He's getting up 27 to 30 shots and probably playing similarly to Ellis. I'd imagine he'd have a few more boards and maybe an extra assist (although the ball wouldn't be in his hands nearly as much) and he'd probably turn it over more as well.

This is my point...you guys are creating myth and legend about Rose in 2011. He had a really good regular season, but this was not some all time great season. And then it crumbled in the playoffs with the first good team he played. Really good season and all, but that's it.

You say it's easier, but it doesn't always work like that. The 14 Mavs had a better offense than Ellis has ever really played on, but he wasn't the most efficient. Ellis was actually more efficient as a scorer in 2011...when he averaged 5 more points per game.

Doesn't always work like that. You guys discount how good the fit was on that Bulls team for Rose.

[tpols]

And why are you not factoring in their all around games.. youre quick to point out a difference in efficiencies.. and in turnovers.. yet completely ignore that Rose is a 10 rpg/10apg player while Monta is only 6/6. Big difference there. Better passing, rebounding and defending seems to matter in basketball.

You also didnt address the fact that Ellis was being assisted on three times as many of his field goals..

And the defense had to worry about other players granting ellis much more single coverage than rose saw..

But you ignore all context and try to compare their efficiencies in a vacuum.


Monta isnt even that far off rose as a scorer.. hes pretty far off in playmaking/passing ability, and the ability to command defensive attention leaving him as the noticeably worse offensive player. Monta is also not known for being a defensive player while rose is at worst average, posting better d-ratings than monta.. and being given duties to cover stars in the playoffs on an elite defensive team while ellis has never played as a main piece for any elite defense.. him and dirk led a 22nd ranked one last year.


Fun fact. I know you love your advanced stats. Monta Ellis has never had a PER above 20. Rose is on pace for 3 times right now while playing half the seasons. Hmmm...

[DMAVS41]

And why are you not factoring in their all around games.. youre quick to point out a difference in efficiencies.. and in turnovers.. yet completely ignore that Rose is a 10 rpg/10apg player while Monta is only 6/6. Big difference there. Better passing, rebounding and defending seems to matter in basketball.

You also didnt address the fact that Ellis was being assisted on three times as many of his field goals..

And the defense had to worry about other players granting ellis much more single coverage than rose saw..

But you ignore all context and try to compare their efficiencies in a vacuum.


Monta isnt even that far off rose as a scorer.. hes pretty far off in playmaking/passing ability, and the ability to command defensive attention leaving him as the noticeably worse offensive player. Monta is also not known for being a defensive player while rose is at worst average, posting better d-ratings than monta.. and being given duties to cover stars in the playoffs on an elite defensive team while ellis has never played as a main piece for any elite defense.. him and dirk led a 22nd ranked one last year.


Fun fact. I know you love your advanced stats. Monta Ellis has never had a PER above 20. Rose is on pace for 3 times right now while playing half the seasons. Hmmm...

I'm not ignoring it all...I even mentioned in my post what I thought their numbers would be.

You are the one that posted the numbers.

Sorry...give me 41/6/6 while getting the 41 on 11 less possessions and turning it over 3 less teams.

Jesus...Rose essentially uses up 14 more possessions to score 7 more points.

That is far more important than rebounding/assists there...especially when Rose has the ball in his hands way more often. Of course Monta is assisted more...he actually gives up the ****ing ball at times. Rose doesn't do this...

Rose has also never been the main piece of an elite defense. See...this is just nonsense. You put steve nash on that 11 Bulls team in place of Rose and they are still an elite defense.

You continue to judge Monta like the narrative about him is set in stone and it's reality. His playmaking is actually stellar since he's been in Dallas. You clearly don't watch any Mavs games consistently or you wouldn't say this crap. Once again...put a player in the right situation and things change.

I think where we really disagree is on the strength of the 11 Bulls....they get supremely under-rated here imo. They just were not nearly as bad of an offensive supporting cast as is claimed.

[tpols]

I'm not ignoring it all...I even mentioned in my post what I thought their numbers would be.

You are the one that posted the numbers.

Sorry...give me 41/6/6 while getting the 41 on 11 less possessions and turning it over 3 less teams.

Jesus...Rose essentially uses up 14 more possessions to score 7 more points.

That is far more important than rebounding/assists there...especially when Rose has the ball in his hands way more often. Of course Monta is assisted more...he actually gives up the ****ing ball at times. Rose doesn't do this...

Rose has also never been the main piece of an elite defense. See...this is just nonsense. You put steve nash on that 11 Bulls team in place of Rose and they are still an elite defense.

You continue to judge Monta like the narrative about him is set in stone and it's reality. His playmaking is actually stellar since he's been in Dallas. You clearly don't watch any Mavs games consistently or you wouldn't say this crap. Once again...put a player in the right situation and things change.

I think where we really disagree is on the strength of the 11 Bulls....they get supremely under-rated here imo. They just were not nearly as bad of an offensive supporting cast as is claimed.

Youve officially gone off the deep end.


The funny thing is.. in what you dub Rose's horrendous 2011 playoff run, he had a PER of 22.5. All star-fringe superstar level. While facing more attention and top notch defensive teams to lower his efficiencies. Yet he gets ripped for that run non-stop by haters such as yourself.


Monta.. on the other hand.. saw a slumping spurs team in their worst playoff series of the year and still posted only a 15 PER. ..literal role player level. And everyone was in agreement that he looked pretty solid and would be great for dallas going forward.

I guess thats what expectations will do.

[aj1987]

Do people still consider Rose to be a good defender?