A PRIME Walton vs a PRIME Sabonis

[oarabbus]

In the mid-70's, McAdoo was arguably the best center in the NBA. Only a prime Kareem would have had a case over him. McAdoo was BLOWING AWAY the league in scoring in that time frame, and was literally unstoppable. He finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP voting in the three year span from '74 thru '76, and the reality was, he was ROBBED of the MVP in '76.

A prime McAdoo was certainly a Top-10 all-time NBA center. And it also speaks volumes about his post-NBA career, that as a 40 year old, he was scoring 30 ppg in Europe.

So Marc Gasol, DeMarcus Cousins, and ISH's very own favorite Dwight would be mediocre to below average centers in the 60s and 70s?

Obviously the 'athletes have evolved since the 60s' arguments are absurd, but what I'm hearing from the nostalgia-era fans is that today is just a low quality league, and no one playing today would stack up back then.

I'm sure a peak KG and peak Dirk would be end of the bench scrubs who weren't fit to step on the court with Wilt or Russell and would be shit players in the 60s [COLOR="White"]and NO I am not saying that KG/Dirk is on Wilt/Russell's level, both are obviously in the top 10. but the hyperbole is unreal[/COLOR]

[LAZERUSS]

So Marc Gasol, DeMarcus Cousins, and ISH's very own favorite Dwight would be mediocre to below average centers in the 60s and 70s?

Obviously the 'athletes have evolved since the 60s' arguments are absurd, but what I'm hearing from the nostalgia-era fans is that today is just a low quality league, and no one playing today would stack up back then.

I'm sure a peak KG and peak Dirk would be end of the bench scrubs who weren't fit to step on the court with Wilt or Russell and would be shit players in the 60s [COLOR="White"]and NO I am not saying that KG/Dirk is on Wilt/Russell's level, both are obviously in the top 10. but the hyperbole is unreal[/COLOR]

A peak KG or Dirk would have been great in any era.

The rest of those "centers" would have been middle tier centers in the early-to-mid 70's without a doubt. Lanier, Gilmore, and Thurmond were all superior. McAdoo, KAJ, and Chamberlain were all considerably superior. Dwight would have been competing with Cowens, Reed, Unseld, and Hayes in that time frame. And later on a prime Walton and a prime Moses were also superior.

[fpliii]

LAZ - If you were starting a team, would you take McAdoo, Reed or Lanier?

[LAZERUSS]

LAZ - If you were starting a team, would you take McAdoo, Reed or Lanier?

Peak? I would give a peak McAdoo a slight edge over both of them at their peaks, (and probably Reed a slight edge over Lanier.)

From '73-74 thru '75-76 he was on another level.

[julizaver]

As Sabonis was one of my favourite players this is one of my favourite photos :

[LAZERUSS]

As Sabonis was one of my favourite players this is one of my favourite photos :

I know it is difficult to project, but where would you rank the Sabonis we know, at his peak, on a tier of the all-time great centers at their peaks?

[julizaver]

I know it is difficult to project, but where would you rank the Sabonis we know, at his peak, on a tier of the all-time great centers at their peaks?

Sabonis in Europe and international level was different then Sabonis in NBA.

In Europe he was trully dominant in all teams he played and he won everything team and individual at both international and team level. He was the main man shouting and arguing with officials (and was considered hot head or short tempered), undisputed leader of all his teams. He was clearly better than Vlade Divac or Rick Smits or Iglauscas (I mentioned those players as they are known in NBA). So for me he was the all-time best European center.

In NBA Sabonis was never the team leader, somehow queit. He was a good servent for Blazers but never the main star. He was often outplayed by Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem but it was mostly because of the lack of mobility and physical limitations (at that stage of his career). He proved that he could play flat footed but it was not enough versus NBA premium big mens from the 90s.

The hardest thing is to determine when exactly his peak was - before '86 or after '88. Based on stats his two best years could be his last in USSR and his first in Spain:

88-89 26.3 ppg in Soviet league
89-90 23.3 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 1.8 apg and 3.5 bpg in just 33 min per game (37 games)

He had some great year in 1995 with Real Madrid team, and his rookie NBA season was very good also, but he was already over 30.

Of course young healthy Sabonis was more than capable without the physical limitations, but then we spoke about the lack of maturity. You can not say that KAJ, Jordan were on their respective primes when in college (20 years of age) - ussually NBA players hit their prime after they turn 24-25 years of age. And Sabonis ruptured his ACL at 22 and almost missed 2 years rehabiliting.

So the Sabonis I know, not the Sabonis that could be, I ranked ahead of every European center but outside of Top 10 ALL-time when NBA players considered below the likes of Shaq and Hakeem.
If we take the peaks only it doesn't do any favor to Sabonis in terms of rankings because he somehow had a long career lasting 20 years (15 of then being handicaped by injuries). Therefore peak Sabonis I could rank around top 20 spot all-time. But with great belive that he could be top 10 if he was healthy enough and joined the Blazers in 1985.

[LAZERUSS]

Sabonis in Europe and international level was different then Sabonis in NBA.

In Europe he was trully dominant in all teams he played and he won everything team and individual at both international and team level. He was the main man shouting and arguing with officials (and was considered hot head or short tempered), undisputed leader of all his teams. He was clearly better than Vlade Divac or Rick Smits or Iglauscas (I mentioned those players as they are known in NBA). So for me he was the all-time best European center.

In NBA Sabonis was never the team leader, somehow queit. He was a good servent for Blazers but never the main star. He was often outplayed by Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem but it was mostly because of the lack of mobility and physical limitations (at that stage of his injuries). He proved that he could play flat footed but it was not enough versus NBA premium big mens from the 90s.

The hardest thing is to determine when exactly his peak was - before '86 or after '88. Based on stats his two best years could be his last in USSR and his first in Spain:

88-89 26.3 ppg in Soviet league
89-90 23.3 ppg, 13.5 rpg, 1.8 apg and 3.5 bpg in just 33 min per game (37 games)

He had some great year in 1995 with Real Madrid team, and his rookie NBA season was very good also, but he was already over 30.

Of course young healthy Sabonis was more than capable without the physical limitations, but then we spoke about the lack of maturity. You can not say that KAJ, Jordan were on their respective primes when in college (20 years of age) - ussually NBA players hit their prime after they turn 24-25 years of age. And Sabonis ruptured his ACL at 22 and almost missed 2 years rehabiliting.

So the Sabonis I know, not the Sabonis that could be, I ranked ahead of every European center but outside of Top 10 ALL-time when NBA players considered below the likes of Shaq and Hakeem.
If we take the peaks only it doesn't do any favor to Sabonis in terms of rankings because he somehow had a long career lasting 20 years (15 of then being handicaped by injuries). Therefore peak Sabonis I could rank around top 20 spot all-time. But with great belive that he could be top 10 if he was healthy enough and joined the Blazers in 1985.

[stanlove1111]

haha, that's pretty much the logic he uses in every single argument he makes, and then he whines about others not bringing up 'facts' as if his 'facts' were eternal truths.

He doesn't know anything about basketball, and I mean anything. He thinks you can put numbers into a computer to see who is the better basketball player...

He has been at it on the internet for at least 15 years with the same old arguments.

I remember years ago on another site debating with him and he told me the fact that Russell's teammates had better numbers one series then Wilt's that its proof that Russell had better teammates. he honestly never thought about the fact that Wilt took on a bigger share of what his team did so of course Russell's teammates would have better numbers..

he didn't respnd for a while and I could just see that blank stare trying to figure that out..

[dubeta]

What about a Prime Sabonis vs a Prime Wilt?

[LAZERUSS]

He doesn't know anything about basketball, and I mean anything. He thinks you can put numbers into a computer to see who is the better basketball player...

He has been at it on the internet for at least 15 years with the same old arguments.

I remember years ago on another site debating with him and he told me the fact that Russell's teammates had better numbers one series then Wilt's that its proof that Russell had better teammates. he honestly never thought about the fact that Wilt took on a bigger share of what his team did so of course Russell's teammates would have better numbers..

he didn't respnd for a while and I could just see that blank stare trying to figure that out..

I can assure you that it was not me you. You must have been making a complete fool out of yourself to someone else back then, just as you have here.

BTW, if you care to discuss the Russell-Wilt "teammates", go ahead and start the topic. I would be more than happy to shred your take, just as I have on the '77 Walton-KAJ series.

[Collie]

Reading this thread, I just realized that David Robinson nearly singlehandedly created the legends of two great centers by being outplayed.

If he wasn't beaten by Sabonis in the 80's we wouldn't have had any footage of him matching up against a great NBA center, and he would have had much more doubters.

Same thing with Hakeem, who became a top 12 player by his 95 playoff performance and by dismantling Drob.

[LAZERUSS]

Reading this thread, I just realized that David Robinson nearly singlehandedly created the legends of two great centers by being outplayed.

If he wasn't beaten by Sabonis in the 80's we wouldn't have had any footage of him matching up against a great NBA center, and he would have had much more doubters.

Same thing with Hakeem, who became a top 12 player by his 95 playoff performance and by dismantling Drob.

Well, in Sabonis' case, it never happened.

As for the '95 playoff performance...yeah, it made Hakeem's career. Unfortunately for D-Rob, the rest of his 42 career H2H's with Hakeem are never mentioned.