Frank Selvy, Ray Allen, and the impact of single plays on history..

[Kblaze8855]

As some but not all of you know....a guy named Frank Selvy played for the Lakers in the 60s.

Good shooter. Great college player. Bit of a local legend here. He scored 100 for a school just up the road from me(Furman) in the 50s.

Anyway....hes the first guy who came to mind when I thought to make this topic. Why?

Because he has one of the most well known misses of all time. I'll let the key players explain here:

http://youtu.be/6IfZmHAgChM?t=41s

The guy who passed it to him...Hotrod Hundley. If his voice sounds familiar its because you heard him say "Stockton to Malone!" 600 times if you are over the age of 25.

Hes also a bit of a dick. He was straight of shook to take the shot. As he himself admitted:

"I had one thought in my mind when the ball came to me: 'Do I take the shot?' I was wide open," Hundley recalled. "I thought, 'If I make it, I'll be the mayor of L.A. But if I miss, they'll be riding me out of town on a rail.' So I elected to pass it to Frank."

But the coward has the nerve tostill crank call Frank Selvys house FIFTY YEARS LATER.

He calls Frank and says "Nice shot frank!" or "Clanks for the memories" and hangs up.

And Frank has been hurt by it for 5 decades. Especially since nobody remembers he got them in the game to begin with. He made the previous 2 shots....

Anyway...this isnt so much about Frank as what single plays like that do to the "legacy"(I hate that word now) of the players around them.


Frank Selvys shot totally shakes up the all time rankings. Baylor has a ring...West has 2.

They happen all the time.


Bobby Dandridge had a 3 point play to force OT in 1978 in a game the Bullets went on to win. That game kept them from going down 3-1 to the Sonics who they beat in 7 games. Dandridge doesnt make the play Dennis Johnson has 4 rings and 2 finals MVPS(and idiots would still laugh when hes compared to Manu....). Granted he played one of the worst game 7s of all time but likely it wouldnt have been needed. The Sonics won the next game which would have given them the title.

Now...im not saying all events unfold the same if they do make it 3-1....im saying a lot rides on the play of people nobody even remembers.


Ray Allens shot does the same. He misses....Duncan has 5 right then and possibly 6 now. Lebron has 1 and people(idiots) would forever act like winning one ring before 30 is laughable.

John starks evades Hakeems pinky:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3-64I6zp7k

....and wets that shot Hakeem probably falls to 15-20 to many and Ewing would be up near him. He got his ass kicked by Hakeem in the finals but nobody really even cares. He would have beat Hakeem for the title in college and the pros. Bet your ass he would never let Hakeem forget it.


Now there are two ways to look at it....in Hakeems case....he didnt standby and wait to see how it goes. He took an active role in preventing his teams loss. Not only did he block starks there he stole it like a play earlier.

Ewing had little to do with it if the team won. He played great D that series but had one of the worst offensive runs ive seen from a player on his level.

But we all know how history sees these things.

Its Ws and Ls. Jerry West shot 32% in the finals the year the Lakers finally won.

Nobody even knows it happened.

You think people would really remember Ewings 36%? Or him holding the trophy as Hakeem slinks off defeated just like college?




He might still be in the background of Patrick Ewings career. At the time...people cared about college rivalries. It was quite a story going in....

Guys like Ray(on multiple teams), Horry(On multiple teams).....Fisher .4....Vinnie Johnson putting away the Blazers.....Houston knocking out the first seed Heat....Stockton personally taking out the 97 Rockets. When Ralph Sampson...no...im gonna let Michael Cooper explain that one:




None of those plays made by the people who get the most credit/blame in history for who wins and loses.

Several raise and lower greater teammates/opponents on the rankings.

What I feel a need to ask is this....

Frank Selvys shot does not make jerry West and Elgin Baylor better.

John Starks does not make Ewing better if he didnt throw a dumb pass to turn it over and then make the game winner.

Ray Allens shot missing would not make Lebron anything he isnt right now.

But we would act like they did.

Are we just ****ing stupid?

I will accept "Yep" as totally reasonable answer.

[AnaheimLakers24]

ya we know ray allen saved brans life

[Nowitness]

Read, I did not.

[Lebron23]

Vintage Kblazee..

[BigTicket]

Yes, the end result matters, even if the player in question had nothing to do with that result.

Lebron is obviously the same player whether or not Allen makes that shot, but his legacy is very different.

In the end we rate players on perception more than ability.

[sdot_thadon]

Are we just ****ing stupid?

I will accept "Yep" as totally reasonable answer.

Great post. And I'm afraid so. In sports fans are so result oriented that we don't ever "stop to smell the roses" so to speak. Loosely related but obviously different, even the way guys are perceived when they are unable to win the big one. Amazing that it's already lost on this generation how much of a beast a guy like Barkley was. Makes you truly wonder how many good players were swept under the rug over the years, casualties of perception.....

[G.O.A.T]

None of those plays made by the people who get the most credit/blame in history for who wins and loses.

Several raise and lower greater teammates/opponents on the rankings.

What I feel a need to ask is this....

Frank Selvys shot does not make jerry West and Elgin Baylor better.

John Starks does not make Ewing better if he didnt throw a dumb pass to turn it over and then make the game winner.

Ray Allens shot missing would not make Lebron anything he isnt right now.

But we would act like they did.

Are we just ****ing stupid?

I will accept "Yep" as totally reasonable answer.

Luck is simply probability taken personally.

I greatly enjoyed your piece here. It was fun to be reminded of all those great shots and I always like to think about things a little deeper as you made us do here. It's a difficult topic, even phrasing a question to probably open dialogue is a frustrating task. As to the one you presented, "Are we just ****ing stupid?" I answer, no. And yes.

For me what comes to mind is the greater balance of everything around us. How it takes so many steps over so much time and is so dependent on so many otherwise seemingly mutually exclusive elements coming together under the right circumstances. Life, for example. The computer and internet I'm using if you prefer something more germane.

I tend to look at Sports the same way, except with more interest. For LeBron to win that title in 2013, Ray Allen needed to make that shot. But for Ray to make that shot LeBron needed to take (and miss) the previous shot, which forced Diaw and Parker both to challenge the shot which allowed Chris Bosh to roll to the rim without a body on him. Because of this Ginobili and Green both had to try to get the rebound from Bosh, because of that no one marked Ray Allen who fled to the corner. Furthermore, the chance for Allen to make the three isn't there if LeBron doesn't make his three on the previous Heat possession. He probably doesn't get the second look he needed to make that shot if Tim Duncan were on the floor for the Spurs. Additionally, if Ginobili or Kwahi Leonard make two free throws instead of one on either of the Spurs last two possessions that shot doesn't matter in that instance. Now we've not even gone back 30 seconds in game time before that shot and I'm already confused as to who deserves the credit for elevating LeBron James when the Heat won the title, when they won that game after they didn't lose this game when Ray Allen made that shot.

I think we need to go deeper. Why was Ray Allen in Miami? It was mutual right. Ray wanted to play for Championships, which playing with LeBron makes possible. Miami needed a perimeter shooter, Ray Allen has earned the reputation as one of the best perimeter shooters ever. So it just makes sense. But what if Ray didn't get traded to Boston in 2007? Is he even still playing? does he develop the reputation that he always had the ability but never previously the opportunity to demonstrate.

The point is that Ray Allen wasn't good enough alone to put Ray Allen in a spot to take that meaningful of a shot. He needed to play with someone who is better than him, multiple players as it turned out by the time he got his chance.

What if Minnesota in 1996 decides to take Kobe Bryant instead of Ray Allen (who they traded to Milwaukee for Stephon Marbury). What if Kobe and Garnett play together from the start. Does Allen ever get his shot with a contender? Does Miami choose him or do they go with Jason Terry? or Chauncey Billups? or Vince Carter? Do those guys still make that shot?

That makes me wonder...what if the AFL would have flopped? In the early 1960's the league that is responsible for Super Bowl Sunday almost went under. But it eventually thrived and forced a merger with the NFL. Because of this, a group of investors had the same idea for Basketball and started the ABA. Because the ABA needed respectability, it hired George Mikan as Commissioner, who because he was born three years later than his parents planned, due to service in World War I, was born at just the right time graduate College as the NBA was starting up. Because the ABA needed "a gimmick" , Mikan believed, he helped them institute the Red, White and Blue ball and the Three point line, which the NBA eventually adopted.

If the AFL had flopped, there would be no ABA and no three-point line. Ray Allen's shot would only have counted for two and LeBron would fall further down the all-time list.



When we rank players, we're just studying and discussing the history of the game. The order we put them in speaks to the things we value as fans and as people. Some people rank players to express their opinions. Some people rank players to show their knowledge of the game. Some people rank players to put a context to a period of time larger than one game or series or season. Some do it because they're bored.

I am a fan of basketball and a fan of history. These things are not to be taken too seriously. I am an analytic type, a seeker of trends and patterns, a competitive type, in constant need of a challenge or test. I love people, I love seeing what the collective can achieve and what the individual can inspire or instigate from the collective. I am a student of human behavior, perhaps fanatic is most apt for this as well. Watching people's actions and understanding them through understanding their motivations. I like when Karma happens.

Ranking basketball players scratches each of these itches. I don't aspire to create a perfect order, just to tell a perfect story. To understand enough not to need to understand anything else. Until the next game is played anyway.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Frank Selvys shot does not make jerry West and Elgin Baylor better.

John Starks does not make Ewing better if he didnt throw a dumb pass to turn it over and then make the game winner.

Ray Allens shot missing would not make Lebron anything he isnt right now.

But we would act like they did.

Are we just ****ing stupid?

I will accept "Yep" as totally reasonable answer.

First off both your post and GOAT were interesting and though provoking.

I will only comment on Lebron as that is the only example I witnessed.

This is one of the reasons people say Lebron is overrated, because his poor basically cost his team a title if not for the combination of a strange coaching decision to leave Tim Duncan on the bench, an average rebounding Bosh getting an improbable rebound with 3 spurs around him and one of the best shots in NBA finals history.

So, no, Ray Allen's shot didn't make him a better player, but it made people rate him higher than he should be, and is therefore overrated in my opinion.

[G.O.A.T]

First off both your post and GOAT were interesting and though provoking.

I will only comment on Lebron as that is the only example I witnessed.

This is one of the reasons people say Lebron is overrated, because his poor basically cost his team a title if not for the combination of a strange coaching decision to leave Tim Duncan on the bench, an average rebounding Bosh getting an improbable rebound with 3 spurs around him and one of the best shots in NBA finals history.

So, no, Ray Allen's shot didn't make him a better player, but it made people rate him higher than he should be, and is therefore overrated in my opinion.

Is he rated higher than he should be or is he rated correctly and would he be underrated in Allen does make the shot.

I've never cared for underrated or overrated debate. Whenever someone pushes for a player one way or the other it usually just means someone doesn't agree with them.

Every player that has won or lost titles has had luck go with or against them. To attribute all the good luck or all the bad luck to a single player is, I believe, a flawed perspective.

Very few people know how close the Celtics were to losing in 1957, 1962, 1965, 1968, 1969. Few recall how many injuries and upsets opened the door for the 1971 Bucks, likewise for the '78 Bullets who saw the leagues top 7 centers eliminated by the end of the first round. The Lakers were really banged up in '83 and '89, same for the Pistons in '88, Celtics in '87 and so many more. The injuries from the 90's on, more fresh in our minds and more talked about in the modern media will too be forgotten before too long.

KBlaze covered buzzer-beaters and last second shots nicely, but lets not forget all the calls that may or may not have changed the outcome of games, seasons, championships, awards, legacies...

I think what I'm taking from this is that it's not worth caring about every minor detail, the picture as a whole is too beautiful to be marred by a few rough edges or inexact lines.

[Dr.J4ever]

Thanks to Kblaze and GOAT. I learned something new today, other than the usual drivel from the stans of Kobe vs Lebron debates in the mud.

Seriously, this is a great topic, and a difficult one. GOAT is right about the Ray Allen example. He was wide open for a reason. Lebron still had an effect on that shot, but it is true that luck and circumstances beyond the control of a superstar plays a part in winning and losing.

With all this crazy rankings, it's wise to know that basketball is complicated enough that not even wins and losses alone should directly affect rankings all the time. The devil is in the details, and closer analysis is important.

[riseagainst]

as a lebron fan, ray's missed shot does not make lebron less of a player, but his legacy and his resume just would not be the same without it going in.
think about it, 1/5 in the finals, 1 hit wonder. Spurs repeat, Duncan 6 rings, possibly his 4th FMVP.

lebron would be barely in the top 30, while Duncan is comfortably in the top 4 GOAT.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron would have the career of Moses Malone plus an MVP or Doctor J plus 3 and being the best player on his sole ring. He would be well ahead of top 30.

And GOATs post I intended to reply to when I read it but I got distracted. I do love a good what if....ill have to go into that in a bit. Eating lunch......

[Jailblazers7]

GOAT's post is some butterfly effect type of shit.

If a butterfly had flapped its wings 30 years ago, would Lebron James have been born?

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT's post is some butterfly effect type of shit.

If a butterfly had flapped its wings 30 years ago, would Lebron James have been born?

Based on what I've learned here it would depend on if the butterfly emerged from its cocoon in a weak era for Milkweed or not.

You should have seen my ridiculous post before I edited out the absurd parts...

What ifs are very fun, but very stupid too. I hate using what-ifs in an argument, debate, its what politicians do. That being said, and all the above maneuvering, Kblaze' point, or rather the impasse he's brought us to, should not be lost. What were really debating is less about basketball skill and more about distribution of credit/blame, and the intangible value of tangible metrics.

It's a giant pissing contest where only patterns draw any majority allegiance and it's fervor never rivals that of fanaticism. The only salvation of Sport as its current condition exists as a result of today's entitled, what have you done for me latley Sports fan, is that it's only a distraction from things that really matter.

That's what he said, right?

[TheGreatDeraj]

Is he rated higher than he should be or is he rated correctly and would he be underrated in Allen does make the shot.

I've never cared for underrated or overrated debate. Whenever someone pushes for a player one way or the other it usually just means someone doesn't agree with them.

I guess I should have prefaced my overrated and underrated statement with where I rate him. I have Lebron ranked below Bird/Magic/Kobe but in the same tier as them.

He was getting pushed above Kobe/Magic/Bird and headed toward Jordan.
And a lot of that push upwards was because of him winning 2 titles back to back. So, yea, that Ray Allen shot does overrate him, because if we go by his play before that shot, it was passive, and he was not confident in his jumper. They sagged off Lebron and Lebron did not attack. He didn't get his jumper going until game 7. Without that shot he is 1/4 in the finals losing 2 titles in which he was on the favored team. But Allen made that Shot, they got another chance and Lebron turned on the aggression and let it rip for great game 7.

Every player that has won or lost titles has had luck go with or against them. To attribute all the good luck or all the bad luck to a single player is, I believe, a flawed perspective.

Very few people know how close the Celtics were to losing in 1957, 1962, 1965, 1968, 1969. Few recall how many injuries and upsets opened the door for the 1971 Bucks, likewise for the '78 Bullets who saw the leagues top 7 centers eliminated by the end of the first round. The Lakers were really banged up in '83 and '89, same for the Pistons in '88, Celtics in '87 and so many more. The injuries from the 90's on, more fresh in our minds and more talked about in the modern media will too be forgotten before too long.

Injuries and trades are things we have to keep in mind to keep the context correct and definitely have a huge impact no doubt. However, with the Celtics were they not just the better team? Winning one of those series on a lucky shot(Don Nelson iirc?)but what about the other 5, maybe they were just better at closing out games? Maybe Celtics and Russell would be overrated if it was just 2 titles with one of them being a lucky shot.

KBlaze covered buzzer-beaters and last second shots nicely, but lets not forget all the calls that may or may not have changed the outcome of games, seasons, championships, awards, legacies...

I can't remember too many calls that single highhandedly decided championships maybe Pistons Lakers with that foul on Kareem iirc

I think what I'm taking from this is that it's not worth caring about every minor detail, the picture as a whole is too beautiful to be marred by a few rough edges or inexact lines.

I'm not sure man I think the details are what makes the story and history so compelling.