Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, Anthony Davis (PF's) Don't Play Like This

[Micku]

Dr.J4ever, you're dancing a bit here... all you guys are on this issue

I think your comparisons are off. When ppl say Bird would be a good stretch 4, you start mentioning non stretch 4s (except Duncan cuz he's a center) and say they don't play like Bird.

Do you know who are/were stretch 4s? LeBron, Novak, Dirk, R.Lewis, Jeff Green, K.Love and Carmelo.

[3ball]

I'm not getting drawn into another extended debate on the virtues of the defensive 3 second rule vs. the illegal defense rule from back then.

don't act like I'm the one that wants to argue the rule... I don't because it's a RULE - there's nothing to argue... but when you make statements about the game that don't consider the impact of the rule, then i have to correct you and point out that the rule exists and impacts the game.

Therefore, offensive philosophies have dictated the changes, and not primarily the rules, the details of which we disagree on.

i never said the armslength rule was the PRIMARY factor... but it's A factor.

defenders must stay within armslength of their man at all times to remain in the paint... This adds to the lane congestion ALREADY BEING CAUSED by the lack of spacing/3-point shooting.

Offenses have learned to adopt and change to what is considered the most efficient way of doing it today.

Efficiency doesn't mean better though... while the spacing creates open shot opportunities, IT TAKES TIME to move the ball to get those open shots, which slows the pace down in comparison to the 80's.

and the open shots amount to play-finishing - most shots today are just play-finishing, especially at the 2-5 positions... i prefer the 80's style of play, where all 5 positions were adept at creating their own offense and where players had to be more creative to get their shot off... i think eventually within a year or two, people will realize that today's game is mostly play-finishing and they won't be as entertained by it as they are now.

when the offense isn't waiting on an open shot, it can play faster, which is more exciting than today's open jumpshooting and in-stride layups where the defense is helping from so far away, they can't help but be late.

A long 2 is now considered a poor shot. Back then, it was a better shot than a 3 pointer.

this is one of the reasons why players from today's era would shoot so poorly without a 3-point line - they are used to the 3-point shots setting up the spacing, which allows them to pursue an optimal allocation of open shots (3-pointers, FT's and open at-rim looks) - this "modern" shot allocation maximizes shooting efficiency, but is super-duper boring as all bloody hell.

today's players are also used to the slower pace that spacing creates... but in previous eras, as you say, players would have to take long two's as a standard, which would plummet their efficiency - a guy shooting 60% TS today, would not shoot that in previous eras because there wouldn't be anyone spacing the floor for them.. Otoh, one can only imagine how guys like Dantley and Jordan would shoot in today's spacing, considering they shot 60% TS without spacing and without shooting 3-pointers.

While I was looking for Bird saying he would be a PF today(which I couldn't find)

of course you couldn't find it - because he never said it - why would one of the greatest players and competitors of all time downgrade his own game?

i think the reason you THOUGHT Bird said it is because that's what everyone ELSE says all the time about Bird, and you got confused... everyone says that about his game, because they think Bird would play worse defense than Mike Dunleavy (SF) or Kyle Korver (SG)...

"I don't know if I'd take 500, but you'd have to take three or four a game, maybe, just to keep the defense honest."

the article and Bird's quotes say nothing about whether Bird would play PF today or not... all it says is that he would shoot 3-4 threes per game - obviously, shooting threes is not restricted to the PF position... (btw, Bird would take more like 5-7 threes per game today).

With defenders guarding 3 point snipers, the paint is left open, and Bird's 1 on 1 defense is exposed. Just my take

Indeed, but this is the case for ALL players - the individual defense of ALL players takes a step back with spacing... so the argument doesn't help your case about him playing PF... it's like saying "well, they moved the line in, so that helped the Knicks win more games from 1994-1997".

Now what your argument DOES reveal, is that Bird would be a far better offensive player in today's game, which is scary... And on defense, i think it's safe to day he'd be far better than Gallinari or Paul Pierce.

[3ball]

I think your comparisons are off. When ppl say Bird would be a good stretch 4, you start mentioning non stretch 4s (except Duncan cuz he's a center) and say they don't play like Bird.

Do you know who are/were stretch 4s? LeBron, Novak, Dirk, R.Lewis, Jeff Green, K.Love and Carmelo.

lebron, melo, and Reggie Lewis were all SF's most of their careers... so to say flatly that "they are PF's" is disingenuous.

as for Novak, Jeff Green and Klove - those guys suck massive donkey balls compared to Bird - it would be a travesty if today's game reduced Bird to that kind of a limited player.

the reality is that growing up with no-spacing made Bird a better basketball player than he'd ever be growing up with today's spacing.

[Micku]

lebron, melo, and Reggie Lewis were all SF's most of their careers... so to say flatly that "they are PF's" is disingenuous.

as for Novak, Jeff Green and Klove - those guys suck massive donkey balls compared to Bird - it would be a travesty if today's game reduced Bird to that kind of a limited player.

It doesn't matter if they were SF most of their careers. If they changed position, they would play a different role to that specific season or game. It didn't matter when James Worthy changed roles from a PF to a SF. It didn't matter when Duncan changed roles from PF to a C, Pau Gasol from PF to a C, or when MJ changed from SG to PG for a short time. Regardless, Carmelo, LeBron and R.Lewis (Rashard Lewis) were stretch 4s for their teams for a couple of seasons. They had the versatility to play different positions. They even change positions mid games if needed.

And why do you think Bird would be limited to what guys like Jeff Green could do? Just because ppl would say Bird would be a stretch 4, it doesn't mean all he would do is take 3s. Jeff Green don't just take 3s. He also has the versatility to play SF as well, but he can't play the stretch 4 as good as LeBron or Bird.

I don't understand why you think just because Tim Duncan played the 4 one way and guys like LeBron or Novak can't play the 4 another way, which they did. Bird and James Worthy also did not play the 4 like Duncan either.

the reality is that growing up with no-spacing made Bird a better basketball player than he'd ever be growing up with today's spacing.

*shrugs*

Whatever. That's subjective, depending on a bunch of factors like upbringing and his mentors and etc. As long as he develop the skills. This isn't entirely relevant.