Better Case For GOAT? Wilt Chamberlain or KAJ

[insidious301]

With 72 records (68 of which he holds by himself), Wilt dominates the NBA record book. And he's not just the top guy on the lists below. In several cases, he's No. 1, 2 and 3. It's hard to believe that there will ever be another player who can dominate as many statistical categories as the Big Dipper did.

On the other hand, Kareem has more accolades and honors, including more championships (went to the Finals 10x), MVPs and FMVPs. Not only that, he was the greatest scorer in history (as per totals).

As you can see, arguments can be made for others as being the "greatest" (which is obviously a very subjective title to bestow on anybody), but when you add up not only his mind-boggling and unsurpassed statistical accomplishments, and the finer points of creating a winning team, the importance of the center position inherent to the game of basketball, and the fact that he was one of the greatest closers to ever play the game with *the* most unstoppable shot in the history of basketball, in my humble opinion Kareem was greater than Wilt and has one of the strongest cases for GOAT.

BTW, here's an interesting little factoid I came across: Kareem, a career 56% shooter, only shot 48% against Chamberlain who shot 55% against Kareem, which was his career average.

[Mr Exlax]

Are you saying GOAT for all time based on career accolades or are you saying GOAT as in how dominant a player each one was?

I have either Wilt or Shaq as the GOAT. Career wise I dunno cause I never sit and look at it all.

[Marchesk]

Kareem has a case, but he also got to play with the two best PGs of all time. Without Oscar and Magic, Kareem's teams didn't make the finals.

[navy]

Kareem has the all around resume over chamberlain. Although, im not sure if you could say that Kareem ever matched Wilt's dominance.

[3ball]

It's Wilt easily imo.

Kareem is nice, but Wilt lost to better competition in his prime, than Kareem played in his prime (pre-lakers).

If I was drafting a team, i'd take Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan.

Wilt had the best talent and skills of anyone ever and given the perfect circumstances could have had the best teams, won the most rings and been the best basketball player.. i don't think it's close - but given the way their careers actually went, Jordan became the better player and the greatest of all time.
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[insidious301]

Are you saying GOAT for all time based on career accolades or are you saying GOAT as in how dominant a player each one was?

I have either Wilt or Shaq as the GOAT. Career wise I dunno cause I never sit and look at it all.

I think GOAT encompasses everything. Careers, accolades, honors and dominance.

[3ball]

i guess what i'm saying is that every single person on the planet would be better if they got a do-over.

and in a world where we got do-overs, Wilt is the best of all time EASILY.

but given the world we live in where no one gets do-overs, jordan became the best player and the greatest of all time without any do-overs - he was the smartest when it mattered - in the moment.

lebron is trying to circumvent the natural process by manufacturing pseudo do-overs every few years, but not only will he will fall short in the end, and but his methodology will never garner the respect his fans wish for him.
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[insidious301]

i guess what i'm saying is that every single person on the planet would be better if they got a do-over.

and in a world where we got do-overs, Wilt is the best of all time EASILY.

but given the world we live in where no one gets do-overs, jordan became the best player and the greatest of all time without any do-overs - he was the smartest when it mattered - in the moment.

lebron is trying to circumvent the natural process by manufacturing pseudo do-overs every few years, but not only will he will fall short in the end, and but his methodology will never garner the respect his fans wish for him.
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Jordan was great, we all know that, but honestly? Putting a 2 guard ahead of the most dominant centers in history just doesn't add up. If these guys not being double-double machines wasn't enough, they were also more dominant in the way the approached and attacked defenses (better in the post for example). Jordan is Jordan, but his rings don't have more value than Wilt or Kareem, in my opinion, because of competition. Jordan in the 80's could not take out Bird, or Magic, or Detroit (until they faltered). His teams would play Boston, and they would get smoked every year, with Bird arguably outplaying him in their series H2H's.

I personally don't care much about volume scoring as I do about actual impact, and affecting the outcome of games besides scoring.

[3ball]

Jordan was great, we all know that, but honestly? Putting a 2 guard ahead of the most dominant centers in history just doesn't add up. If these guys not being double-double machines wasn't enough, they were more dominant in the way the approached and attacked defenses (better in the post for example). Jordan is Jordan, but his rings don't have more value than Wilt, Magic or Kareem, in my opinion because of competition. Jordan in the 80's could not take out bird , or Magic, or Detroit (until they faltered). His teams would play Boston, and they would get smoked. Bird arguably outplaying him in their series H2H's. I don't care much about volume scoring as I do about actual impact, and affecting the outcome of games besides scoring.

all those big men (Shaq, Kareem) needed dominant wing players to win their rings.

but jordan didn't need a dominant big man to win HIS rings - he only needed a 20 PPG wing player that was inferior to the wings those big men needed (Oscar, Kobe, Wade, or Magic).

people talk about how the bulls could have won championships with any decent 2-guard in Jordan's place, but in reality, the NON-troll question is how good does scottie's replacement need to be for jordan to still win?

we know that in 1998, that replacement could have averaged 15 PPG on 41% and jordan would still have won.

NORMALLY, for every wing player in history, a dominant big man is preferable... EXCEPT for Jordan... he was that good, and just a cut above every single wing player in history - (lebron needed wade who is > Pippen, AND Bosh).
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[HomieWeMajor]

The Captain and it isn't even close.

[insidious301]

Not to deviate from my OP, but I always found this quote from Kareem interesting:

MJ was awesome—but I think Oscar Robertson would have kicked him in the behind. Absolutely. Oscar was awesome. He had brains. [...] He had all the skills.

He could rebound and box out guys four and six inches taller than him. He was ruggedly built. He had fluid, quickness and just understood the game. No flair, he just got the job done every night. Who’s going to average double figures in points, assists and rebounds?

Kareem may be biased, but Big O is one of the few perimeter players along with Jordan who impacted the game akin to a bigman. At 6'5, he could do pretty much everything and he deserves credit for how revolutionary he was for that period.

[insidious301]

all those big men (Shaq, Kareem) needed dominant wing players to win their rings.

but jordan didn't need a dominant big man to win HIS rings - he only needed a 20 PPG wing player that was inferior to the wings those big men needed (Oscar, Kobe, Wade, or Magic).

people talk about how the bulls could have won championships with any decent 2-guard in Jordan's place, but in reality, the NON-troll question is how good does scottie's replacement need to be for jordan to still win?

we know that in 1998, that replacement could have averaged 15 PPG on 41% and jordan would still have won.

NORMALLY, for every wing player in history, it is preferable to have an all-time dominant big man instead... EXCEPT for Jordan... he was that good, and just a cut above every single wing player in history.

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.

[GimmeThat]

When working out, just focusing on certain muscle groups instead of your whole body most likely helps you burn body fat at a lower rate, with most likely a lower maximum strength point before plateauing.

[3ball]

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.

so you'd rather have pippen over Shaq and Kareem's sidekicks of oscar, magic, wade, or kobe?... that's ludicrous.

also, grant was nowhere near the greatest rebounder, so i don't know what you're talking about - just some fantasy that you want to believe.

and rodman averaged 3 ppg, so the Bulls played 4 on 5 offensively at all times. but Jordan was so good offensively, those Bulls teams were STILL the greatest offensive teams in history (highest team offensive rating ever... while playing 4 on 5 offensively).

[mehyaM24]

Jordan needed the greatest rebounders, defense-men and coach of all time, so I don't think your point is valid. No offense.

exactly.

russell won more than anybody ever will again - that's just a fact. wilt literally changed the rules of the game because he dominated like nobody ever will again - that's just a fact. bird ousted jordan in h2h battles before pippen and phil took over and turned the franchise around. again, fact.

bottom line.. jordan is probably the best of his era, that's all, that's it. idk why he's this mystical god people created as infallible?