Which team has more to prove in the playoffs

[CeilingFan#1]

Hawks after this season. Harden has the most to prove as an individual though.

[Milbuck]

Yes those are realistic expectations. Just because Harden is MVP doesnt mean that anyone thinks his team is good enough to win it all. They clearly arent the best team in their conference they just have the best regular season player carrying a band of misfits that would be in the lottery without him.

If Harden drops 40/9/9 and they lose in the first round will that really be a failure? No. Disappointing because everyone aspires to win a championship. Sure.

What is the point of arguing with extreme hypotheticals? Of course if the dude averages 40/9/9 and loses, it's totally fine. But that's not even remotely realistic. If Harden averages 40/9/9, the Rockets are raping the rest of the league. You know why? Because that entire team is built around his creating ability..his slashing, his ability to kick out to shooters, his ability in transition, while still being able to create shots for himself out in the perimeter.

The dude is a ball-dominant guard that loves to be the focal point of all offensive creation, acting like this Rockets squad isn't tailor made for his strengths is disingenuous. They're filled with hard working defensive players, and shooters. They sure as hell aren't an elite defense because of him. And Harden may be the one creating a lot of the 3s but he's not the one draining all of them. The biggest myth on here is that there isn't any talent on the Rockets roster. People are acting like he's on some of T-Mac's garbage supporting casts or something, and it's just not the case. Saying they'll be in the lottery without him doesn't mean much..they're built totally around him..you take away the centerpiece, they crumble..the team's identity revolves around him.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hawks after this season. Harden has the most to prove as an individual though.

Your post to rep ratio is GOAT like

[J Shuttlesworth]

Why does that matter whatsoever?

The Spurs were infinitely better coached, more well constructed, balanced than the Heat last year but was it not a disappointment, a failure of a season for Lebron, Wade, Bosh, etc?

The 2008 Celtics were stacked beyond belief, but Kobe himself admitted to that season being a complete waste.

By this logic, it's a failure for every team in the league aside from the champions, aside from tanking teams. Technically speaking? Yes, it was a failure for the Heat because they lost, but they lost to a simply better team. I don't think losing to that Spurs team brings a ton of shame to the Heat organization, or invalidates the previous two years for the Heat. It also doesn't mean that they need to bust apart their core and rebuild completely

There is zero excuse for an MVP of the league to go into the playoffs with anything less than championship as the goal, the expectation.

Every team goes into the playoffs with a championship as a goal, whether realistic or not. That doesn't make your season a "complete failure" if you lost to a superior team like the Grizzlies or Warriors, or whomever it may be.

Seriously, if we're to say that the Rockets should be perfectly fine with losing in the 1st round, that's a complete joke and devalues the MVP award.
And this is what I'm talking about.

Shoots over 40% and doesn't suck ass in the 1st round?

Seriously? That's the expectations for the MVP of the league?

You're talking about the MVP award as if it's a team accomplishment, and not an individual player award. Nobody said the Rockets should be fine with losing in the first round... No 3rd seed should be. In fact, no players are really fine with losing at all, but losing to a superior team shouldn't rest as an abomination/massive failure on an organizations part. The 13 Warriors didn't blow it up when they lost to the Spurs, neither did Memphis.

The key to a succesful season is doing the best with what you have. as much as I like Harden, the Rockets just don't have a championship caliber roster. I would never put money on these guys to win a ring, even if it was guaranteed that Harden would put up 30 ppg in the playoffs. Their second best player is nowhere near as good as other 2nd options like Klay, or Westbrook, or even Kyrie (Howard used to be at this level, but his health is clearly an issue lately)

Look at the 2013 or 2014 Pacers. Those teams had championship aspirations being the 2nd seed and being an elite defensive team. Do you really consider them losing to the Miami Heat to be a completely failure? What if they had beat the Heat last year, and lost to the Spurs in the finals? I'm sorry, but I'd have considered that to be a pretty successful season for the, and I believe the management would agree.

In short, no players should be happy with losing, but it doesn't mean that the team's season is an absolute failure just because they lost to a superior team.

[J Shuttlesworth]

What is the point of arguing with extreme hypotheticals? Of course if the dude averages 40/9/9 and loses, it's totally fine. But that's not even remotely realistic. If Harden averages 40/9/9, the Rockets are raping the rest of the league. You know why? Because that entire team is built around his creating ability..his slashing, his ability to kick out to shooters, his ability in transition, while still being able to create shots for himself out in the perimeter.

The dude is a ball-dominant guard that loves to be the focal point of all offensive creation, acting like this Rockets squad isn't tailor made for his strengths is disingenuous. They're filled with hard working defensive players, and shooters. They sure as hell aren't an elite defense because of him. And Harden may be the one creating a lot of the 3s but he's not the one draining all of them. The biggest myth on here is that there isn't any talent on the Rockets roster. People are acting like he's on some of T-Mac's garbage supporting casts or something, and it's just not the case. Saying they'll be in the lottery without him doesn't mean much..they're built totally around him..you take away the centerpiece, they crumble..the team's identity revolves around him.

Completely disagree. Hero ball won't win you the West. There are 3 quality teams playing team basketball, which is the kryptonite for hero ball.

[navy]

What is the point of arguing with extreme hypotheticals? Of course if the dude averages 40/9/9 and loses, it's totally fine. But that's not even remotely realistic. If Harden averages 40/9/9, the Rockets are raping the rest of the league. You know why? Because that entire team is built around his creating ability..his slashing, his ability to kick out to shooters, his ability in transition, while still being able to create shots for himself out in the perimeter.

The dude is a ball-dominant guard that loves to be the focal point of all offensive creation, acting like this Rockets squad isn't tailor made for his strengths is disingenuous. They're filled with hard working defensive players, and shooters. They sure as hell aren't an elite defense because of him. And Harden may be the one creating a lot of the 3s but he's not the one draining all of them. The biggest myth on here is that there isn't any talent on the Rockets roster. People are acting like he's on some of T-Mac's garbage supporting casts or something, and it's just not the case. Saying they'll be in the lottery without him doesn't mean much..they're built totally around him..you take away the centerpiece, they crumble..the team's identity revolves around him.

No its not. The entire team is just what Morey managed to find in his rolling roulette of players and trades. You really think that Josh Smith is the perfect player to play with Harden? Dwight Howard? Nonsense. Just a bunch of average(not Dwight) guys that Morey picked up because he failed to get that another quality like Bosh or Dragic or Lowry, two of which he traded away. Wasnt Jeremy Lin suppose to start when they got him?

Morey and McHale's offensive philoshopy is to chuck threes and post up. Take Harden off that squad and you got the same three point chucking Rockets with no one able to create for themselves.

Lottery team without Harden. Bunch of Mchale and Morey chucking players soon to be traded.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Millbuck, maybe we're just talking semantics of "Absolute failure" Are you saying it's an absolute failure for all of these teams aside from maybe the Suns?



Or say OKC gets in instead of Suns... is it an absolute failure for every team in the West to miss the WCF? I just can't understand calling it "WCF or bust" for every single team in the running, but if that's what you're saying, I kinda get your point.

[Milbuck]

No its not. The entire team is just what Morey managed to find in his rolling roulette of players and trades. You really think that Josh Smith is the perfect player to play with Harden? Dwight Howard? Nonsense. Just a bunch of average(not Dwight) guys that Morey picked up because he failed to get that another quality like Bosh or Dragic or Lowry, two of which he traded away. Wasnt Jeremy Lin suppose to start when they got him?

Morey and McHale's offensive philoshopy is to chuck threes and post up. Take Harden off that squad and you got the same three point chucking Rockets with no one able to create for themselves.

Lottery team without Harden. Bunch of Mchale and Morey chucking players soon to be traded.

What is the issue? Is Russell Westbrook the perfect player to play with Kevin Durant? They literally play better without each other, and have time and time again struggled to mesh their highest levels.

The fact of the matter is, they're an elite defensive team...not because of Harden. They're filled with shooters. D-Mo, Ariza, Smith, Brewer, Bev, Jones, Papa, JET, etc is a rock solid roster, and that's not even including Dwight. When Dwight gets healthy, he's a legitimate star player and as good a #2 as you could ask for. Unless we're just gonna assume Dwight is gonna be hurt for the playoffs...where is this garbage roster I keep hearing about?

You put way too much stock into shot-creating ability..just because none of them are reliable individual shot creators (aside from Dwight and D-Mo) doesn't mean they're worthless players. It just means the team is built entirely around Harden's strengths.

Take Dwight's Magic for example...you take Dwight off that team, and they would be terrible...but were they garbage squads because of it? Not at all..they had a good amount of a talent..they made the freaking finals..it's just that they were built and coached entirely around Dwight's strengths and skill-set, and with him gone they had zero identity or foundation to build their game on. It speaks more to the construction of the team than the actual talent level.

[Milbuck]

Millbuck, maybe we're just talking semantics of "Absolute failure" Are you saying it's an absolute failure for all of these teams aside from maybe the Suns?



Or say OKC gets in instead of Suns... is it an absolute failure for every team in the West to miss the WCF? I just can't understand calling it "WCF or bust" for every single team in the running, but if that's what you're saying, I kinda get your point.

Yes, it is WCF or bust for every single team in the running assuming OKC makes it in. Every single team in the WC playoffs is looking to win the championship. Literally every single one. By that effect...not getting past the 2nd round is a complete disappointment.

[J Shuttlesworth]

Yes, it is WCF or bust for every single team in the running assuming OKC makes it in. Every single team in the WC playoffs is looking to win the championship. Literally every single one. By that effect...not getting past the 2nd round is a complete disappointment.

Ok so I guess you're using "absolute failure" in a pretty vague light.

I thought you were saying it as if the Rockets are favorites to make the WCF, which would make missing it absolute failure... which I would agree with, but they're not favorites.

Guess we can end this since it's clearly a semantic discussion.

[navy]

What is the issue? Is Russell Westbrook the perfect player to play with Kevin Durant? They literally play better without each other, and have time and time again struggled to mesh their highest levels.

The fact of the matter is, they're an elite defensive team...not because of Harden. They're filled with shooters. D-Mo, Ariza, Smith, Brewer, Bev, Jones, Papa, JET, etc is a rock solid roster, and that's not even including Dwight. When Dwight gets healthy, he's a legitimate star player and as good a #2 as you could ask for. Unless we're just gonna assume Dwight is gonna be hurt for the playoffs...where is this garbage roster I keep hearing about?

You put way too much stock into shot-creating ability..just because none of them are reliable individual shot creators (aside from Dwight and D-Mo) doesn't mean they're worthless players. It just means the team is built entirely around Harden's strengths.

Take Dwight's Magic for example...you take Dwight off that team, and they would be terrible...but were they garbage squads because of it? Not at all..they had a good amount of a talent..they made the freaking finals..it's just that they were built and coached entirely around Dwight's strengths and skill-set, and with him gone they had zero identity or foundation to build their game on. It speaks more to the construction of the team than the actual talent level.

When you are at the level of Durant and Westbrook, how they fit is not an issue to me. I just took exception to you saying the team was built for Harden. No, the team is just whatever Morey could get.

I was assuming Dwight wasnt going to return to form in time for a post season run, yes. Solid band of misfits that look good because Harden is so great. Like I said take him off and you are looking at the lottery. That's why the team is looking to get a Bosh, or a Lowry, or Dragic. Something to make them serviceable without Harden GOATin.

Yes take Dwight off that team and they would be terrible. Had Dwight had a reliable second option that team would have had much more success.

What happens when Harden goes to the bench? Josh Smith is gonna run the offense?

First or second round exit team.

Let me me ask you this. What do you think Harden would have average to take this team over the hump?

[Milbuck]

When you are at the level of Durant and Westbrook, how they fit is not an issue to me. I just took exception to you saying the team was built for Harden. No, the team is just whatever Morey could get.

I was assuming Dwight wasnt going to return to form in time for a post season run, yes. Solid band of misfits that look good because Harden is so great. Like I said take him off and you are looking at the lottery.

Yes take Dwight off that team and they would be terrible. Had Dwight had a reliable second option that team would have had much more success.

What happens when Harden goes to the bench? Josh Smith is gonna run the offense?

First or second round exit team.

Let me me ask you this. What do you think Harden would have average to take this team over the hump?

And the team just so happens to be playing elite defense and being incredibly proficient at shooting 3s?

They're not just a bunch of random scrubs that shouldn't be in the league. Again, we need to stop acting like this is the Sixers squad minus MCW. They defend, they play together, and they shoot the lights out. Talent is not always top-heavy. They're a balanced team centered around a player that ties everything together, and that counts for something.

Was that 2009 Magic team a garbage roster outside of Dwight, yes or no?

To your question, with a healthy Dwight? All he would need to do is average exactly what he's doing right now and they'd have a fair shot against literally any team in the league. If Harden is putting up 28/6/7/2/1 on 61% TS with his improved defense, and again, Dwight is more or less Dwight..they can beat anyone.

[Milbuck]

Ok so I guess you're using "absolute failure" in a pretty vague light.

I thought you were saying it as if the Rockets are favorites to make the WCF, which would make missing it absolute failure... which I would agree with, but they're not favorites.

Guess we can end this since it's clearly a semantic discussion.

It's definitely a semantic discussion. Absolute failure is just flashy terminology, but the meaning is pretty clear-cut, just that every West team has high expectations this year.

[navy]

And the team just so happens to be playing elite defense and being incredibly proficient at shooting 3s?

They're not just a bunch of random scrubs that shouldn't be in the league. Again, we need to stop acting like this is the Sixers squad minus MCW. They defend, they play together, and they shoot the lights out. Talent is not always top-heavy. They're a balanced team centered around a player that ties everything together, and that counts for something.

To your question, with a healthy Dwight? All he would need to do is average exactly what he's doing right now and they'd have a fair shot against literally any team in the league. If Harden is putting up 28/6/7/2/1 on 61% TS with his improved defense, and again, Dwight is more or less Dwight..they can beat anyone.

Chucking three with only Harden able to create open ones. First round exit. Give this team Pop, Bud, or Kerr(Alvin Gentry) and then we'll talk. McHale is basically Mark Jackson.

Alright. Give him a healthy Dwight and my expectations remain the same. Play well. Match or exceed his regular season play. Whatever happens happens.

[RoseCity07]

Rockets aren't going anywhere. Harden's flopping got shutdown in the playoffs. Refs wouldn't give him those calls to decide the game. Not going to work this year either. Rockets are expected to lose first round.