Havlicek vs Pippen

[oarabbus]

So by your ring counting logic, Hondo>Most of the guys in the top 10.

Id take Hondo too but your logic is weak. And they are close for what its worth.

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen

[houston]

pippen

[kshutts1]

I wish bizil posted in a more legible manner. He has some really good things to say.

But for an all time ranking? I don't know enough about Hondo to make a fully accurate statement, but I'd assume Hondo was the better player.

Hard to tell, though, since Hondo spent a lot of time in a sixth man role. Had some fabulous years as a starter/star, though.

[CavaliersFTW]

I wish bizil posted in a more legible manner. He has some really good things to say.

But for an all time ranking? I don't know enough about Hondo to make a fully accurate statement, but I'd assume Hondo was the better player.

Hard to tell, though, since Hondo spent a lot of time in a sixth man role. Had some fabulous years as a starter/star, though.

His 6th man role was played with starter minutes though, and he was closing those games. So not exactly the same diminished presence as other typical 6th men might have.

[greatest-ever]

When it comes to Pip, I've said it before and I've said it again. He was an alpha dog gene away from being the arguably the GOAT SF. And from being a top 10-15 GOAT. He was too skilled, too accomplished, and too revolutionary not for it to happen. Guys like Baylor, Barkley, and Malone are rated ahead of Pip on most GOAT lists WITHOUT even winning a ring.

So Pip is stuck with the perception that he was a great player BUT not a great scorer/killer. The problem with that is u have guys like a Hondo, MJ, Magic, Bird, Bron, West, Wade, etc. who were great all around players AND alpha dogs in one.

So those kind of guys will ALWAYS take precedence over Scottie. To all Pip fans out there, Im not shitting on him. I'm just stating he was DAMN CLOSE to being arguably the GOAT SF IF he showed a bit more brilliance scoring wise. He has more rings than Bird and Bron COMBINED!! So surely if he was seen on that level, he would be rated AHEAD OF BOTH on a GOAT list...

This post doesn't make sense to me.

Yes Pippen was a elite defender and all around player but he was nowhere near the offensive talent that a Lebron or Bird was. Even KD when he gets longevity will be ranked over Pippen. Bringing up the fact that he has more rings than Lebron and Bird combined is pointless as he was the clear 2nd option on all of them. Robert Horry has more rings than Dirk, KG, Barkley and Malone combined, i guess we should consider him on their level only if he had more "alpha dog" in him.

[greatest-ever]

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen

Saying "Hondo>Pippen" isn't offering any sort of argument. Again i agree that Hondo is better but it's close and i don't really use rings as my reasoning. It's more off longevity and the fact that i think he was a little better in the playoffs.

Parker has 4 rings and a Fmvp so i guess Parker>Oscar since Oscar has less rings and no FMVP.

[bizil]

This post doesn't make sense to me.

Yes Pippen was a elite defender and all around player but he was nowhere near the offensive talent that a Lebron or Bird was. Even KD when he gets longevity will be ranked over Pippen. Bringing up the fact that he has more rings than Lebron and Bird combined is pointless as he was the clear 2nd option on all of them. Robert Horry has more rings than Dirk, KG, Barkley and Malone combined, i guess we should consider him on their level only if he had more "alpha dog" in him.

U don't even understand WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT!! I'm aware that Pippen wasn't on the level of Bird or Bron in terms of scoring. My point was IF HE WAS, he would have gone down as arguably the GOAT SF. Why?:

Six NBA titles
Arguably the GOAT perimeter defender
Two Gold Medals
Redefined the SF position
Seven Time All Star
Seven Time All NBA
All Star Game MVP
10 Time All Defensive Team

Pip had EPIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS!! And at one point was the best SF in the world!! So my point was that SCORING was the only thing keeping him from being a top 10-15 GOAT caliber player.

U bring up Horry! WHICH IS A PISS POOR EXAMPLE!! From an individual level, Horry was NEVER CONSIDERED an elite player. So of COURSE his seven rings aren't gonna take him far in a GOAT argument. Pippen was the top SF in the world and redefined his position. So as great as Pippen was, scoring kept him from being arguably the GOAT SF at one point.

And u bring up second options. Well look at some of the 2nd options on title teams:

Kobe
Dr. J
Wade
McHale
Magic
Big O
Shaq

So some 2nd options are ACTUALLY alpha dog kind of players. In today's game, Westbrook-Durant is a great example!! So the 2nd option argument for Pip that u bring up doesn't hold much weight EITHER!!

[dreamwarrior]

Havlicek could do everything Pippen did but more consistently and never broke down mentally. His defense was just as good as he had a better inside game

[greatest-ever]

U don't even understand WHAT THE HELL I WAS TALKING ABOUT!! I'm aware that Pippen wasn't on the level of Bird or Bron in terms of scoring. My point was IF HE WAS, he would have gone down as arguably the GOAT SF. Why?:

Six NBA titles
Arguably the GOAT perimeter defender
Two Gold Medals
Redefined the SF position
Seven Time All Star
Seven Time All NBA
All Star Game MVP
10 Time All Defensive Team

Pip had EPIC ACCOMPLISHMENTS!! And at one point was the best SF in the world!! So my point was that SCORING was the only thing keeping him from being a top 10-15 GOAT caliber player.

U bring up Horry! WHICH IS A PISS POOR EXAMPLE!! From an individual level, Horry was NEVER CONSIDERED an elite player. So of COURSE his seven rings aren't gonna take him far in a GOAT argument. Pippen was the top SF in the world and redefined his position. So as great as Pippen was, scoring kept him from being arguably the GOAT SF at one point.

I was only pointing out how stupid it was to bring up rings when it comes to the comparison of him with LBJ, and Bird.

Also, it's pointless to say "Well if Pippen was a better scorer he could be the GOAT SF!". If you dramatically increase an aspect of any player's game it can make them a much better player. Imagine if you gave Dirk Hakeem-like defense for example? He'd probably be the GOAT PF. But it's pointless to play these sort of games. Pippen wasn't in Lebron and Bird's galaxy as an offensive player so there's nothing he could've done to be on their level. And saying "if he had more alpha gene!" just makes no sense and adds to the stupidity of your argument.

[greatest-ever]

And u bring up second options. Well look at some of the 2nd options on title teams:

Kobe
Dr. J
Wade
McHale
Magic
Big O
Shaq

So some 2nd options are ACTUALLY alpha dog kind of players. In today's game, Westbrook-Durant is a great example!! So the 2nd option argument for Pip that u bring up doesn't hold much weight EITHER!!

I don't get what your point is with this. The reason i brought up Pippen being a 2nd option is because you counted rings when comparing him to Bird and Lebron who were clearly the 1st option and played at a much higher level than Pippen ever did.

[bizil]

I don't get what your point is with this. The reason i brought up Pippen being a 2nd option is because you counted rings when comparing him to Bird and Lebron who were clearly the 1st option and played at a much higher level than Pippen ever did.

You're lost!! U are lost big time!!

[bizil]

I was only pointing out how stupid it was to bring up rings when it comes to the comparison of him with LBJ, and Bird.

Also, it's pointless to say "Well if Pippen was a better scorer he could be the GOAT SF!". If you dramatically increase an aspect of any player's game it can make them a much better player. Imagine if you gave Dirk Hakeem-like defense for example? He'd probably be the GOAT PF. But it's pointless to play these sort of games. Pippen wasn't in Lebron and Bird's galaxy as an offensive player so there's nothing he could've done to be on their level. And saying "if he had more alpha gene!" just makes no sense and adds to the stupidity of your argument.

Bron and Bird are easily better players than Pip was. But in the all around sense, Pip was JUST AS GOOD as them. And he's the best defending SF of all time to boot. So OBVIOUSLY scoring is the key thing that separates Pip from Bird and Bron peak wise.

If Pippen was as deadly of a scorer as Bird or Bron, he would be considered just as good as them peak wise or damn close. Once u couple that with his other accomplishments, it's makes TOTAL SENSE that Pip could have been arguably the GOAT SF. At least until Bron would have passed by.

My point is that in many ways, Pip's resume stacks up to ANY SF EVER! So WHY IS he not rated close to Bron, Bird, Dr. J, or Hondo GOAT wise? Its because of the perception of his scoring ability.

[bizil]

Rings don't say it all some of the other Celtic legends had 6-8 rings.... Havlicek had the FMVP.

Hondo >> Pippen

Exactly!! Hondo was a GREAT PLAYER who also had the rings!! U couple that with Hondo's peak level, he's the choice over Pippen. I also agree that rings aren't the be all end all for GOAT status. But it's extremely important! Why do many people have Russ over Kareem and Wilt GOAT wise? Its because of rings! Peak wise, Kareem and Wilt are clearly better than Russ was.

[97 bulls]

Once again I have to be the voice of reason here. Hondo should be ranked ahead of Pippen because he accomplished more. But you guys line of reasoning is terrible. And plainly see the bias in some of these posters (especially Bizil).

Hondo was never the best player on a championship team. I dont see how he could be regarded as the teams best player when Cowens routinely finished ahead of him in the MVP voting. Even winning it once. Hondo couldnt sniff an MVP even in a time where two separate leagues shared the talent. Take away half of the leagues best players like Olajuwan, Robinson, in 94, and Pippen would've won the MVP. And DPOY in the same season

Hell Pippen would've been the number one option on those Celtics teams. And Hondo wouldve been the number two on the Bulls.

Comparing their stats are disingenuine. Hondo played over 40 min per, in an uptempo league and routinely shot in the low 40s/high 30s %. Hondo in the 90s would be scoring in the high teens.

It never ceases to amaze me how posters can take certain stats at face value like scoring, then argue to the death as to how to how the Bulls record setting 72 win tean isnt the best alltime team due to yada yada. Just hypocrites.

[bizil]

Once again I have to be the voice of reason here. Hondo should be ranked ahead of Pippen because he accomplished more. But you guys line of reasoning is terrible. And plainly see the bias in some of these posters (especially Bizil).

Hondo was never the best player on a championship team. I dont see how he could be regarded as the teams best player when Cowens routinely finished ahead of him in the MVP voting. Even winning it once. Hondo couldnt sniff an MVP even in a time where two separate leagues shared the talent. Take away half of the leagues best players like Olajuwan, Robinson, in 94, and Pippen would've won the MVP. And DPOY in the same season

Hell Pippen would've been the number one option on those Celtics teams. And Hondo wouldve been the number two on the Bulls.

Comparing their stats are disingenuine. Hondo played over 40 min per, in an uptempo league and routinely shot in the low 40s/high 30s %. Hondo in the 90s would be scoring in the high teens.

It never ceases to amaze me how posters can take certain stats at face value like scoring, then argue to the death as to how to how the Bulls record setting 72 win tean isnt the best alltime team due to yada yada. Just hypocrites.

But the key is Hondo showed more ACUMEN dominating scoring than Pippen did. If u have two great all around players floor game wise, the one who is the better scorer CAN BE A TIEBREAKER! It might determine who I would choose in a discussion. In this case, it gives the edge to Hondo.

Once again, ITS NOT ABOUT FIRST OR SECOND OPTION!! It's about your actual scoring ability AND HOW YOU APPLY IT!! Duos such as Shaq-Kobe, West-Baylor, Doc-Moses, Westbrook-Durant, Wade-Bron, Big O-Lew, and Magic-Kareem featured two alpha kind of scorers.

The WHOLE WORLD knew it too! If one guy was deemed "second option", everybody knew they were really an alpha. Pippen was never considered that kind of option. Not hating JUST THE FACTS!! I still consider him a great and revolutionary player.

In terms of MVP's, Shaq and Kobe ONLY WON ONE!! THE LOGO OF THE LEAGUE Jerry West NEVER won an MVP! So who cares if Hondo never won an MVP. He had enough other qualities OVER Pippen to take this argument. I do think its TELLING that Pippen has six rings BUT YET isn't regarded a top 20 GOAT player. Once again not dissing, but guys like Barkley WHO NEVER won a ring are rated ahead of Pippen routinely on a GOAT list. Why is that? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME!!