Havlicek vs Pippen

[bizil]

What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

Of course they used the Triangle with Kobe and Shaq!! There were times when Kobe was allowed to freelance. But BEST BELIEVE the triangle was the primary offense. Phil being the genius he is allowed Kobe to switch it up. But the primary offense was the triangle. Shaq would put u on Shaqtin a Fool for saying such a foolish statement!!

[Round Mound]

I dont mind if people choose Havlicek over Pippen but people who saw Pippen play in his prime, know how good he really was. Pippen sacrificed stats for wins. There is a reason why Jordan never wanted to play without Pippen in his team.

[Roundball_Rock]

I dont mind if people choose Havlicek over Pippen but people who saw Pippen play in his prime, know how good he really was. Pippen sacrificed stats for wins. There is a reason why Jordan never wanted to play without Pippen in his team.

[bizil]

Regarding Kobe being a "much more dangerous" second option than Pippen, that is true--in theory. In practice Kobe went 24-29 without Shaq from 2000-2004 (Shaq was 25-6 without Kobe during the same period); Pippen went 51-21 without Jordan in 94' (Jordan went 24-11 without Pippen in 98'--so not a massive difference like with Shaq and Kobe). Pippen was a better leader than young Kobe and that offset 2001-2004 Kobe being a better player than 1991-1998 Pippen.

U make good points no doubt. If u put peak Pippen in place of Kobe of those Laker teams, they would still win rings. And in terms of being compatible, Pippen would actually be a better fit. U would get 22 points, great point forward play, and epic defense. Shaq-Kobe didn't get along and left rings on the table. Pip and Shaq would have got along great and won at least 4-5 rings. Pip AT TIMES was a better leader than young Kobe. I STILL remember Pippen quitting on his team back in the day. That's not great leadership. But Pip's floor game was second to none.

[97 bulls]

Of course they used the Triangle with Kobe and Shaq!! There were times when Kobe was allowed to freelance. But BEST BELIEVE the triangle was the primary offense. Phil being the genius he is allowed Kobe to switch it up. But the primary offense was the triangle. Shaq would put u on Shaqtin a Fool for saying such a foolish statement!!

Way to totally not respond to my point. Its my understanding that you feel Kobe was able to score a lot of points in the Triangle. My response is that he scored most of his points on his own. So much that he fought with both Jackson and Shaq on who shoukd be the first option. Now im not saying he never played within the confines of the offense, but it was ckear that Bryant very often went rogue in an effort to score points. Often to the detriment of his team. Jackson wanted him to play the Pippen role. He didn't. And in my opinion, it cost him at least two more rings.

[houston]

You mean like Baylor, West, Oscar, Gus Johnson, Sam Jones, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Rick Barry (minus a few seasons), and Pete Maravich?

Are you freaking kidding me?

still weak compared aba wing talent. hell even rick barry stated that.

[97 bulls]

U make good points no doubt. If u put peak Pippen in place of Kobe of those Laker teams, they would still win rings. And in terms of being compatible, Pippen would actually be a better fit. U would get 22 points, great point forward play, and epic defense. Shaq-Kobe didn't get along and left rings on the table. Pip and Shaq would have got along great and won at least 4-5 rings. Pip AT TIMES was a better leader than young Kobe. I STILL remember Pippen quitting on his team back in the day. That's not great leadership. But Pip's floor game was second to none.

See. An agenda post. Youre talking about one play. In a stellar 18 year career. ONE play. And here's where I would like for you to be consistent. If you're gonna question Pippens leadership based on one play, how can you call Magic Johnson after costing the Lakers a championship in 84? Or losing to the Suns in 90 even though he was a heavy favorite. See the inconsistency? Why do you overlook Magics transgressions but hold Pippen accountable for his?

[HOoopCityJones]

What? Again. Only taking things at face value without context. Kobe never played in the Triangle when he played alongside Shaq under Phil Jackson. He ALWAYS danced to his own beat. So much that Jackson called him uncoachable and even wanted him traded. It got so bad that Shaq and Kobe couldn't play together. Look at the 2004 Finals.

Bryant even mentioned in a recent interview that Shaq wanted him to give him the ball and he would tell him no. Is that a part of running the Triangle?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

See. An agenda post. Youre talking about one play. In a stellar 18 year career. ONE play. And here's where I would like for you to be consistent. If you're gonna question Pippens leadership based on one play, how can you call Magic Johnson after costing the Lakers a championship in 84? Or losing to the Suns in 90 even though he was a heavy favorite. See the inconsistency? Why do you overlook Magics transgressions but hold Pippen accountable for his?

Hold on now. Since when did playing bad in a series equal quitting on your team? As far as I know, Magic never intentionally sat out a game, in the closing seconds, because he wasn't getting and/or shooting the ball. If having a tough series is the same thing to you, then Pippen would have a number of asterisks during the second three-peat along with his stint in Portland...

I get what you're trying to say, but your example was poor dude.

[97 bulls]

That was wrong. And extreme. If you look at my next post I did say that Bryant routinely strayed away from the Lakers offense. Id be lying if I said he did it exclusively.

[97 bulls]

Hold on now. Since when did playing bad in a series equal quitting on your team? As far as I know, Magic never intentionally sat out a game, in the closing seconds, because he wasn't getting and/or shooting the ball. If having a tough series is the same thing to you, then Pippen would have a number of asterisks during the second three-peat along with his stint in Portland...

I get what you're trying to say, but your example was poor dude.

Id agree. But that wasn't my point. I consider Johnson to be one of the greatest clutch players ever. But he did have his mishaps. But I wouldn't hold it against him. Based on his whole body of work. The same goes for Pippen. I don't think what Pippen did sitting out should totally trump all he did over the course of his whole career.

Ti summarize, if you feel Pippen wasnt a leader due to one play, then surely you must feel Magic wasnt clutch due to what happend in 84 and 90.

[Round Mound]

People Forget How Much Pippen Had To Sacrifice STAT WISE In Order For His Team To Win and For Jordan To Shine as He Did.

-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: The GOAT Perimeter Defender Ever (Close by "young" Pistons era Dennis Rodman).
-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: One of The GOAT Coast To Coast Ballhandling and Catch and Finish Forwards of All Time (Dr J, Worthy, Sampson, Chambers, Barkley, K Malone)
-Pippen Was and Is Till Today: One of The GOAT Point-Forward Playmaking and Passing Forwards of All Time
-Pippen Was Among The Best Rebounding SFs of His Time
-Pippen Was a 21-23 PPG Scorer on 47-49% FG Had He Played As The Man On His Teams.
-Pippen Revolutionized The Point-Forward Play Being The 1st ORIGINAL MODERN-BALLHANDLING-PLAYMAKING FORWARD OF THE 90s

***Pippen Was Doing All This WHILE GUARDING THE OTHER TEAMS USUAL BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER: 1s 2s 3s and 4s.

***You Know How Much Energy That Requires Per Game? Per Season? Per Post Season? Per Finals?

-Pippen Also Was One Of The GOAT BASKBALL ATHLETEs in Terms of SPEED, QUICKNESS, AGILITY, LEAPING ABILITIES AND ACROBATICs....

Had Pippen Been One Another Team All His Career He Would Have Had Similar Numbers To Pre-Injury GRANT HILL (maybe less efficient scoring but MUCH BETTER DEFENSE) 23-8-6-2.5-1.0 LIKE NUMBERS

***MJ himself required the Bulls to keep Pippen in order for him to come back in 94-95.