A few things to keep in mind fellas.. for when Lebron wins it all this year

[3ball]

Al Jefferson would be a 2nd tier bigman in 1996 - no better than the 12th-best:

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing
Alonzo
Sabonis (25 PER - unbelievable all-round talent)
Karl Malone
Barkley
Webber
Kemp

And he'd probably be behind Rik Smits, Vin Baker, Dino Radja, and certainly Derrick Coleman.

In addition to the proof from the previous post that dribble-penetration is easier today, we have proof that post scoring is easier as well:

Al Jefferson and others would be considered a 2nd tier bigs in previous eras, yet they are league-leaders in post efficiency today, and they're all at the universally-recognized standard for elite efficiency of 1.00 PPP.

This elite post efficiency from 2nd tier bigs flat-out proves today's defensive environment hasn't diminished post efficiencies... The only reason coaches don't use post-ups as much as before is because floor-spacing and the hand-check ban increased efficiencies on ball movement and dribble penetration, allowing these methods to SURPASS post-ups.. But Al Jefferson scoring 1.00 PPP on the post proves that post efficiencies THEMSELVES haven't diminished at all.

Also, if we are keeping it real, simple logic tells us that today's spacing and defensive 3 seconds rule force defenders to help from further distances on post players.. So even without the Al Jefferson proof, it makes sense that post PPP is higher today than it used to be.. After all, everything else is.
.

[3ball]

OP's obvious agenda driven but yea...

Agenda-driven perhaps, but also FACTS-driven:

The NBA's own stats show that Lebron and Harden lead the league in isolations - almost 30% of their possessions are isolations - more than anything else they do...

Also, it's easy to prove that dribble-penetration occurs more today than previous eras.. The NBA stated the rule changes had accomplished one of their primary objectives of increasing penetration - so unless we think the NBA is flat-out lying and pulling shit out of their ass, we have to take them on their word that penetration occurs more now than before.

And again, the NBA's own stats show that dribble penetration accounts for more points in today's game than any other scoring method.

I'm not sure what more proof people need that penetration occurs more today than ever before, and that all of today's offenses are BASED on dribble-penetration...

Not that any of it matters - MJ was an off-ball player anyway.. .. The guy could morph into Stephan Curry in the 1992 Finals if needed, or score 55 in the playoffs on all JJ Redick-style catch-and-shoot - whatever the defense was giving him, he'd use elite ability to exploit - the only player ever that was elite at everything.
.

[Hey Yo]

there were no more challenges for Jordan.. that's why he retired... it's well-documented that he retired because there were no more challenges for him..

both he and phil jackson have said that many times.

If that were truly the case, then why sign a new deal with Chicago before the 95-96 season? Why not sign with struggling Philly, Milwaukee or Dallas? Why not sign with on with expansion team Vancouver or Toronto?

Wouldn't that be considered a huge challenge for him?

[ShawkFactory]

So basically what I gather from this thread is that if Lebron wins the title this year we can expect more repetitive, agenda-driven garbage that no one reads than ever before.

[Hey Yo]

Agenda-driven perhaps, but also FACTS-driven:

The NBA's own stats show that Lebron and Harden lead the league in isolations - almost 30% of their possessions are isolations - more than anything else they do...

Also, it's easy to prove that dribble-penetration occurs more today than previous eras.. The NBA stated the rule changes had accomplished one of their primary objectives of increasing penetration - so unless we think the NBA is flat-out lying and pulling shit out of their ass, we have to take them on their word that penetration occurs more now than before.

And again, the NBA's own stats show that dribble penetration accounts for more points in today's game than any other scoring method.

I'm not sure what more proof people need that penetration occurs more today than ever before, and that all of today's offenses are BASED on dribble-penetration...

Not that any of it matters - MJ was an off-ball player anyway.. .. The guy could morph into Stephan Curry in the 1992 Finals if needed, or score 55 in the playoffs on all JJ Redick-style catch-and-shoot - whatever the defense was giving him, he'd use elite ability to exploit - the only player ever that was elite at everything.
.

Mj was an off the ball player yet led the league in FGA in 9 of the 11 full seasons with Chicago.

[3ball]

So basically what I gather from this thread is that if Lebron wins the title this year we can expect more repetitive, agenda-driven garbage that no one reads than ever before.

Nah, I won't bother - that's why I pre-empting it now - there's only so many times you can post the NBA stating that penetration occurs more now than before.

Once Lebron gets ring #3, you won't see me on here anymore... So that should make you cheer for Lebron even harder... Other Jordan fans should probably copy my shit for future use if they want to argue for MJ once Lebron gets his 3rd and 4th ring (on far worse stats) and everyone says he's better than MJ again.

[3ball]

Mj was an off the ball player yet led the league in FGA in 9 of the 11 full seasons with Chicago.

i know, it's crazy - MJ got GOAT stats and production as an off-ball player.

no wonder he's 6/6 in 13 seasons (only 11 full seasons if you take out the injury year in 86' and baseball comeback year in 95').

[Hey Yo]

i know, it's crazy - MJ got GOAT stats and production as an off-ball player.

no wonder he's 6/6 in 13 seasons (only 11 full seasons if you take out the injury year in 86' and baseball comeback year in 95').

It's not crazy...... cause you're full of shit.

[Trollsmasher]

Still waiting for that proof of dribble penetration accounting for more points today than in the previous eras, OP

[3ball]

Flooding Deandre to the strongside (seen above) leaves the weakside a man down and vulnerable - the ways to exploit this were standardized years ago and are routinely used by all teams.

Whereas letting Deandre paint-camp under the rim doesn't leave the weakside vulnerable - Griffin gets to stay on Love in the near-corner, while Dandre's presence under the rim provides the best opportunity to defend against penetrators from the strongside... He's closer to Mosgov this way too.

It's been long proven that a big man's presence under the rim is the best possible position for him defensively - the only reason the strong-side flood exists is BECAUSE defenders can no longer paint-camp.

This simple isolation play would be frontside flooded with help across the lane low today.

Today's defensive 3 seconds and spacing forces bigs to defend in a flood and shading-type fashion on the perimeter, instead of protecting the rim in the paint.. To execute floods and shading, bigs must come AWAY from the hoop and defend a guard off-the-dribble, as Pau is seen trying to do above.

This is a major disadvantage for the big man - essentially, today's game forces bigs to trade in their advantage of taking on smaller defenders AT the rim (previous eras paint-camping), for a disadvantage of contesting quicker players on the perimeter (today's floods and shading).

And clearly, the stats prove that today's floods and shading haven't made scoring or penetration more difficult - teams score more today than in the mid-90's and the NBA's own stats show teams score via dribble-penetration more than any other scoring method..

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Somehow I've never seen this .gif used. Future repped, definitely saving the link for it.

[3ball]

Still waiting for that proof of dribble penetration accounting for more points today than in the previous eras, OP

The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...son/index.html


NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. [COLOR="Red"]Players are penetrating and the floor is spread.[/COLOR] As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. [COLOR="Red"]By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration[/COLOR]. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. [COLOR="Red"]With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration[/COLOR], cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: [COLOR="Red"]Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration[/COLOR], two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. [COLOR="Red"]The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.[/COLOR]



WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

[24-Inch_Chrome]

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

I think we might need more gifs to finally get the point across.

[Trollsmasher]

The NBA stated that the rule changes worked as planned to increase penetration:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...son/index.html

NBA.COM: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. [COLOR="Red"]Players are penetrating and the floor is spread.[/COLOR] As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

STU JACKSON: Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. [COLOR="Red"]By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration[/COLOR]. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.


NBA.COM: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

STU JACKSON: It doesn't. [COLOR="Red"]With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration[/COLOR], cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim.


NBA.COM: From an Xs and Os perspective, how have coaches adjusted to a more wide-open game? What have they done differently?

STU JACKSON: [COLOR="Red"]Coaches have utilized more space on the floor so to create more room for dribble penetration[/COLOR], two-man pick-and-roll basketball and dribble exchanges on the perimeter.


NBA.COM: When you watch the game today, does it closely resemble an international game or are there still distinct differences in the style of play?

STU JACKSON: Our game does more closely resemble an international game in terms of the style of play than it used to. However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. [COLOR="Red"]The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.[/COLOR]



WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

I want empirical data. This is just a subjective gibberish.

Until then

[BigBoss]

He'll be 2 for 6. He'll run Kevin Love out of town. He'll lose even more respect by the league